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  • 1.  Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 10-23-2024 13:28

    Hi,

    I asked about this in the water chemistry webinar, and was re-routed to this forum. 

    When designing a pale lager recipe (i.e. pilsner, helles), how do you balance the need for calcium with the mouthfeel and flavor impact of adding more sulfate and chloride? I'm in an area (Eugene, OR) with very neutral water. I use Bru'n Water, and in order to hit that 40ppm Calcium number, it tells me to add more minerals than I want for classic neutral water expression. 

    Thanks,

    Aaron



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    Aaron Brussat
    Brewer, Claim 52 Brewing
    Eugene, OR
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  • 2.  RE: Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 10-25-2024 10:56

    What I like to do is bring my mash liquor to  ~75 ppm's with mostly CaCl and a little CaSO4, and acidify with acidulated malt. With untreated RO liquor for the sparge the BK is somewhere between 40 and 50 ppm. After doing the math I will "season" the BK to get all salts in line.



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    Michael Schaefgen
    Mequon WI
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 10-25-2024 14:03

    Hey Aaron- 

    The question you asked during the webinar was: When designing a pale lager recipe, for example, how do you balance the need for calcium with the mouthfeel and flavor impact of adding more sulfate and chloride? (I'm in an area with very neutral water)

    Thanks for elaborating more here on what you are seeking and continuing the conversation in the community. This is a more complicated question than just water chemistry, delving into the nuances of style and a specific water profile.

    And, it sounds like you want some creative options!

    Firstly, have you considered lowering the calcium to perhaps 30-35 ppm? You should still have enough calcium for yeast health and pH control but less impact on mouthfeel. This can help you keep sulfate and chloride additions to a minimum, closer to a 1:1 ratio. Sulfate and chloride levels should be somewhere between 10-30 ppm for a lager.

    Secondly, and I know this is kind of out of the silo, you could use acidulated malt or calcium carbonate to get to that lower target pH and still have sufficient calcium. A lower target pH (5.2-5.4) may help maintain balance, especially with a pale lager.

    It may require some FAFO to figure out the best method to achieve your goals, but this is where science and art meet!

    References:

    Fix, G. (1999). Principles of Brewing Science: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues. Brewers Publications.

    Palmer, J. (2013). "Water Chemistry." How to Brew (4th ed.). Brewers Publications.

    Noonan, G. J. (2003). New Brewing Lager Beer. Brewers Publications.

    https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Calcium

    https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Water_mineral_adjustment

    https://beertannica.com/homebrewing/acidulated-malt-guide/



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    Frances Tietje-Wang
    Fermly
    Denver CO
    (720) 819-6688
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 10-28-2024 01:12

    I'll add on the method we've designed for our brewery. First off we use RO for all of our brewing water. For our american standard lager once we get to the level of sulfate and chloride that we want. Then we'll add either citric or lactic acid and calcium carbonate at the same time so that they neutralize right away and don't affect the pH at all. This is obviously not the most elegant method, but it does get the job done. The amount you need will certainly depend on your water and malt, but in general roughly 1.25 g citric acid or 1.5 mL 88% lactic acid will neutralize 1 g CaCO3. You can figure the exact amount out for you by testing on your brewing water and through trial and error.

    For our darker lagers we'll generally get enough just by using CaCO3 or CaOH to balance the pH (it actually takes quite a bit with the darker beers since the RO doesn't have any real buffering capacity)



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    Nate Denzin
    Gnarly Cedar Brewery
    Greenleaf WI
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 10-28-2024 15:22

    Hey Aaron, this is a great question. Out of curiosity, just how much is Bru'n water telling you to add (on a per barrel basis)?

    I took a quick look at Eugene's water and I'm seeing:

    • Calcium: 4.1 mg/L
    • Chloride: 3.2 mg/L
    • Sulfate: 4.5 mg/L

    Based on that (and my own water calculations), you should be able to get to 40 ppm Calcium with:

    • CaCl: 9.0 g/bbl 
    • CaSO4: 7.5 g/bbl

    This should yield:

    • Ca: 40 ppm
    • Cl: 40 ppm
    • SO4: 40 ppm

    (To be clear, you could use a different ratio of chloride and sulfate, I just kept them equal for the sake of simplicity--if it were me I would reduce the sulfate a bit and increase the chloride a bit. I'm happy to talk about this more if it helps.)

    Here's the thing: those chloride and sulfate levels are definitely above "classic" levels for Munich. I'm unsure if there's a way to have your cake and eat it too in this situation. 

    Having said that, I've made many batches of helles using water that isn't overly suitable for Munich helles. Even then, the reaction from people who I know won't bulls**t me (experienced tasters, colleagues, and corporate superiors) was that the beer was still fantastic. Let me put this differently: just because you can't meet the water profile of Munich doesn't mean you can't make an excellent Helles. (I would not be saying that, though, if your water profile was way different--my feeling is that you're close enough.) My feeling is that you can still give it a shot: I have a feeling you'll be alright. 

    Also, FWIW below are John Palmer's broad recommendations for Munich helles are (page 418, How to Brew 4th ed). These are meant to highlight what I said a moment ago: you're probably close enough to make a great beer. 

    • Ca: 50-100 ppm
    • Mg: 10 ppm
    • Total Alkalinity: 0-50 ppm
    • SO4: 0-50 ppm
    • Cl: 50-100 ppm

    I'll add that I agree with @Frances Tietje-Wang vis-à-vis acidulated malt: acid malt is a great way to reduce salt additions while still arriving at your target mash pH. 

    Good luck! Let me know if I can clarify or expand on anything I've written here.

    Nassim



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    Nassim Sultan
    Brewer/Free Agent
    nassimsultan@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 10-28-2024 16:51

    I've never been concerned with the mineral levels needed to get 40-50ppm calcium using RO water in our breweries. You have to keep in mind that the final mineral profile in your beer has much higher levels of all of the minerals in question contributed from your malt. If you balance everything around 50ppm, you're essentially having no significant impact on the finished mineral profile and flavor. You are still essentially using "neutral" water at that point so no need to stress getting your numbers lower. 



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    Sam Tierney
    Propagator Brewery Manager
    Firestone Walker Brewing Co
    Marina del Rey CA
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Water adjustment for pale lager

    Posted 11-01-2024 07:32

    Thanks to everybody who responded to my question! I'm new around here, and the breadth of detail and approach to recipe development in these responses fills me with gratitude. I've read over and digested the information in your replies, and really don't have any further questions right now. I did want to reply, generally, that we do use acidulated malt in our paler beers, and are not against using other tools to get where we want. I started using Bru'n water when I started at the brewery earlier this year, and am still adjusting myself to all of its parameters. 

    Conceptually, I'm adjusting myself to the different mineral concentration needs for beers of varying "intensity," i.e. abv, hopping rates, residual sugars, etc. It's a holistic process, right? I've still/always got a ton of reading to do.

    Thanks again, and I look forward to contributing my knowledge here in the future. Cheers!



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    Aaron Brussat
    Eugene OR
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    Original Message


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