Ask The Brewmasters

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

Yes, it can be done but if not done properly there can be drawbacks. For instance boiler carryover. You said you have a 10 bbl system so I assume your boiler is small also. Low-pressure boilers typically don't have a steam surge tank. So, any rapid use of steam use will drag boiler water into your steam header. That is what boiler carryover is. If want to know more about boiler carryover go to Claritywatertech.com and go to our brewery page for the blog on boiler carryover. I suggest you look at the steam to the water mixing station. It is safer and more efficient.

------------------------------
Gerald Alvey
Senior Technical Consultant
Clarity Water Technologies LLC
Orangeburg NY
(859) 750-7817
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 14:11
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

has anyone said NO!

------------------------------
Ed Michalski
CEO
Pro Engineering and Mfg Inc
Milwaukee WI
(414) 362-1500
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 14:11
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2022 2:11:00 PM
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

Hi Tyrell,

We use steam to to help "sterilize" our foeders and puncheons, but this isn't a permanent solution. Molds will quickly grow back. This is a good option between fills in order to reset the microbe load, but if you have longer time gaps between fills, you'll want to use a holding solution that will prevent microbial growth, e.g. citric acid and potassium metabisulfite. 

Two safety issues to highlight from both steaming and holding solution:

- Make sure you're using clean steam if the steam will touch the same surface as product. Usually chemicals will be added to the boiler water supply that shouldn't make their way to product-touching surfaces (unless filtered).

- Dissolve and add the citric acid and potassium metabisulfite separately into the the foeder or puncheon to avoid significant off-gassing. This off-gassing should be happening in the vessel and is what is holding microbes in check.

------------------------------
Burke Dignam
Director of QA
Trillium Brewing Company
Canton MA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 14:11
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

The citric / sulfite holding solution has worked well for me on foeders & barrels. I'd emphasize Burke 's point about off gassing and ensure you and your team are following good procedure and have proper PPE.

------------------------------
Roger Herpst
Brewmaster
Bear Republic Brewing Co.
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2022 11:18
From: Burke Dignam
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi Tyrell,

We use steam to to help "sterilize" our foeders and puncheons, but this isn't a permanent solution. Molds will quickly grow back. This is a good option between fills in order to reset the microbe load, but if you have longer time gaps between fills, you'll want to use a holding solution that will prevent microbial growth, e.g. citric acid and potassium metabisulfite.

Two safety issues to highlight from both steaming and holding solution:

- Make sure you're using clean steam if the steam will touch the same surface as product. Usually chemicals will be added to the boiler water supply that shouldn't make their way to product-touching surfaces (unless filtered).

- Dissolve and add the citric acid and potassium metabisulfite separately into the the foeder or puncheon to avoid significant off-gassing. This off-gassing should be happening in the vessel and is what is holding microbes in check.

------------------------------
Burke Dignam
Director of QA
Trillium Brewing Company
Canton MA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 14:11
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

Thanks Burke,

I appreciate your reply. As you and others pointed out, production steam is different than culinary steam. That was the detail I was missing, and I will not try to use our boiler steam to clean the foeders. I'm curious though if you completely fill your foeders with the holding solution or just partially. Our foeder is 15bbls and I'd hate to dump that much water every time I need to store the foeder between uses. Thanks!

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2022 11:18
From: Burke Dignam
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi Tyrell,

We use steam to to help "sterilize" our foeders and puncheons, but this isn't a permanent solution. Molds will quickly grow back. This is a good option between fills in order to reset the microbe load, but if you have longer time gaps between fills, you'll want to use a holding solution that will prevent microbial growth, e.g. citric acid and potassium metabisulfite.

Two safety issues to highlight from both steaming and holding solution:

- Make sure you're using clean steam if the steam will touch the same surface as product. Usually chemicals will be added to the boiler water supply that shouldn't make their way to product-touching surfaces (unless filtered).

- Dissolve and add the citric acid and potassium metabisulfite separately into the the foeder or puncheon to avoid significant off-gassing. This off-gassing should be happening in the vessel and is what is holding microbes in check.

------------------------------
Burke Dignam
Director of QA
Trillium Brewing Company
Canton MA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 14:11
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------

We top off our foeders until we see liquid exiting the blowoff arm. This is to avoid the staves from drying out over time and avoid a number of other issues, e.g. oxygen, microbes, liquid loss.

------------------------------
Burke Dignam
Director of QA
Trillium Brewing Company
Canton MA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2022 17:39
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Thanks Burke,

I appreciate your reply. As you and others pointed out, production steam is different than culinary steam. That was the detail I was missing, and I will not try to use our boiler steam to clean the foeders. I'm curious though if you completely fill your foeders with the holding solution or just partially. Our foeder is 15bbls and I'd hate to dump that much water every time I need to store the foeder between uses. Thanks!

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2022 11:18
From: Burke Dignam
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi Tyrell,

We use steam to to help "sterilize" our foeders and puncheons, but this isn't a permanent solution. Molds will quickly grow back. This is a good option between fills in order to reset the microbe load, but if you have longer time gaps between fills, you'll want to use a holding solution that will prevent microbial growth, e.g. citric acid and potassium metabisulfite.

Two safety issues to highlight from both steaming and holding solution:

- Make sure you're using clean steam if the steam will touch the same surface as product. Usually chemicals will be added to the boiler water supply that shouldn't make their way to product-touching surfaces (unless filtered).

- Dissolve and add the citric acid and potassium metabisulfite separately into the the foeder or puncheon to avoid significant off-gassing. This off-gassing should be happening in the vessel and is what is holding microbes in check.

------------------------------
Burke Dignam
Director of QA
Trillium Brewing Company
Canton MA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 14:11
From: Tyrell Elliott
Subject: Steam cleaning using boiler steam

Hi all,

We are a 10BBL brewpub with a low-pressure boiler that feeds our HLT and brewhouse. We have a couple of 15 BBL Foeders, and misc barrels. With our current level of production, one of the foeders is not always full. I'm looking into ways of keeping it clean between beers and thought about using steam from our boiler. The steam line to our HLT has a discharge port with a ball valve (pictured). I'm specifically wondering about the validity and safety of adding a threaded TC port to the end of the valve and a high temp hose assembly to steam clean the Foeders and barrels. Has anyone here done this specifically and could share their experience/equipment? It seems doable to me with the right equipment, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Appreciate any insight!

cheers,

------------------------------
Tyrell Elliott
Head Brewer
Ghost Note Brewing
Dripping Springs TX
(406) 599-2071
------------------------------