Ask The Brewmasters

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Hi Zachary,

That looks like classic silica deposits to me.  Acid CIP will not remove it.  It takes a lot of hot caustic to remove them.  I wrote an article on how to remove Biofine Clear or Nalco 1072 deposits and it can be seen here:

https://www.birkocorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/TechnicalQuarterly.pdf

Hope this helps!

Dana

------------------------------
Dana Johnson
Technical Director, Craft Brewing
Birko - A Diversey Company
Henderson CO
(303) 289-1090, ext. 117
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Hi Dana,

We don't use Biofine or anything like that....

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 20:58
From: Dana Johnson
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Zachary,

That looks like classic silica deposits to me.  Acid CIP will not remove it.  It takes a lot of hot caustic to remove them.  I wrote an article on how to remove Biofine Clear or Nalco 1072 deposits and it can be seen here:

https://www.birkocorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/TechnicalQuarterly.pdf

Hope this helps!

Dana

------------------------------
Dana Johnson
Technical Director, Craft Brewing
Birko - A Diversey Company
Henderson CO
(303) 289-1090, ext. 117

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

I have seen something similar when the interior lining of brewers or vintner hose break down. We found a citric degreaser with a soft brush was the best at removing the deposits. You may be able to tell if the hoses are compromised by visual inspection of the hoses, or by rubbing a finger inside the hose while damp and see if any particulates come off.

------------------------------
Ryan McVeigh
Brewery Operation Manager and Brewmaster
Kona Brewing Co
Kailua-Kona HI
(808) 443-1800
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Ours hoses are pretty new, probably a year max.

They all look and feel fine from what I can see.


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 12:53
From: Ryan McVeigh
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

I have seen something similar when the interior lining of brewers or vintner hose break down. We found a citric degreaser with a soft brush was the best at removing the deposits. You may be able to tell if the hoses are compromised by visual inspection of the hoses, or by rubbing a finger inside the hose while damp and see if any particulates come off.

------------------------------
Ryan McVeigh
Brewery Operation Manager and Brewmaster
Kona Brewing Co
Kailua-Kona HI
(808) 443-1800

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

It's standard caustic from Chemstation. I don't have the actual data on what its made up of. It's product 50177.

We passivated the tanks using the Birko method originally, acid cip every quarter or so.

I can post our water report but it's fairly neutral.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 11:25
From: Aaron Brodniak
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Hi Zack
I can't look up the Chemstation product online, is it a chlorinated caustic?   I'm wondering if you are warm rinsing the tank after cleaning then the chlorine or even the caustic salts are drying onto the side of the tank as the rinse water evaporates?    I could see chlorine or some other additive in your chemical "burning" the stainless if its drying on the surface and then it would be very difficult to remove.     The discoloration also reminds me of chlorine damage we've seen from using chlorinated city water during CIP, I would make sure you are carbon filtering all of your water

Is the stain the same shapes and in the same exact locations every week?    You could try another brand of caustic for a week or two or you could try rinsing with acidic water  after your caustic cleaning and see if the problem goes away completely.

------------------------------
Curtis Holmes
Alaskan Brewing Co
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 13:58
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

It's standard caustic from Chemstation. I don't have the actual data on what its made up of. It's product 50177.

We passivated the tanks using the Birko method originally, acid cip every quarter or so.

I can post our water report but it's fairly neutral.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 11:25
From: Aaron Brodniak
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Hi Curtis,

We do not use chlorinated caustic, we do rinse with HLT water which is around 195F.

The stains are not the same shape or in the same spots. They are random and sometimes they are a ring around the bottom of the cone.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 13:51
From: Curtis Holmes
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Zack
I can't look up the Chemstation product online, is it a chlorinated caustic?   I'm wondering if you are warm rinsing the tank after cleaning then the chlorine or even the caustic salts are drying onto the side of the tank as the rinse water evaporates?    I could see chlorine or some other additive in your chemical "burning" the stainless if its drying on the surface and then it would be very difficult to remove.     The discoloration also reminds me of chlorine damage we've seen from using chlorinated city water during CIP, I would make sure you are carbon filtering all of your water

Is the stain the same shapes and in the same exact locations every week?    You could try another brand of caustic for a week or two or you could try rinsing with acidic water  after your caustic cleaning and see if the problem goes away completely.

------------------------------
Curtis Holmes
Alaskan Brewing Co

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 13:58
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

It's standard caustic from Chemstation. I don't have the actual data on what its made up of. It's product 50177.

We passivated the tanks using the Birko method originally, acid cip every quarter or so.

I can post our water report but it's fairly neutral.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 11:25
From: Aaron Brodniak
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/29/2022 8:23:00 AM
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: RE: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Curtis,

We do not use chlorinated caustic, we do rinse with HLT water which is around 195F.

The stains are not the same shape or in the same spots. They are random and sometimes they are a ring around the bottom of the cone.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 13:51
From: Curtis Holmes
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Zack
I can't look up the Chemstation product online, is it a chlorinated caustic?   I'm wondering if you are warm rinsing the tank after cleaning then the chlorine or even the caustic salts are drying onto the side of the tank as the rinse water evaporates?    I could see chlorine or some other additive in your chemical "burning" the stainless if its drying on the surface and then it would be very difficult to remove.     The discoloration also reminds me of chlorine damage we've seen from using chlorinated city water during CIP, I would make sure you are carbon filtering all of your water

Is the stain the same shapes and in the same exact locations every week?    You could try another brand of caustic for a week or two or you could try rinsing with acidic water  after your caustic cleaning and see if the problem goes away completely.

------------------------------
Curtis Holmes
Alaskan Brewing Co

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 13:58
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

It's standard caustic from Chemstation. I don't have the actual data on what its made up of. It's product 50177.

We passivated the tanks using the Birko method originally, acid cip every quarter or so.

I can post our water report but it's fairly neutral.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 11:25
From: Aaron Brodniak
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Hi Zack,
That is a very hot rinse for a tank.  Aside from putting a lot of stress on your tank welds and cooling jackets due to the high heat expansion that stainless has, the water will evaporate off the surface very fast when you quit rinsing and could be leaving chemical deposits behind.  I would keep around 100-120 degrees for your caustic and your rinse water at most, or slowly bring the rinse water temperature down at the end of rinsing so you finish with cool water and see if that helps!

------------------------------
Curtis Holmes
Alaskan Brewing Co
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2022 08:23
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Curtis,

We do not use chlorinated caustic, we do rinse with HLT water which is around 195F.

The stains are not the same shape or in the same spots. They are random and sometimes they are a ring around the bottom of the cone.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 13:51
From: Curtis Holmes
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Zack
I can't look up the Chemstation product online, is it a chlorinated caustic?   I'm wondering if you are warm rinsing the tank after cleaning then the chlorine or even the caustic salts are drying onto the side of the tank as the rinse water evaporates?    I could see chlorine or some other additive in your chemical "burning" the stainless if its drying on the surface and then it would be very difficult to remove.     The discoloration also reminds me of chlorine damage we've seen from using chlorinated city water during CIP, I would make sure you are carbon filtering all of your water

Is the stain the same shapes and in the same exact locations every week?    You could try another brand of caustic for a week or two or you could try rinsing with acidic water  after your caustic cleaning and see if the problem goes away completely.

------------------------------
Curtis Holmes
Alaskan Brewing Co

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 13:58
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

It's standard caustic from Chemstation. I don't have the actual data on what its made up of. It's product 50177.

We passivated the tanks using the Birko method originally, acid cip every quarter or so.

I can post our water report but it's fairly neutral.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 11:25
From: Aaron Brodniak
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/29/2022 8:23:00 AM
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: RE: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Curtis,

We do not use chlorinated caustic, we do rinse with HLT water which is around 195F.

The stains are not the same shape or in the same spots. They are random and sometimes they are a ring around the bottom of the cone.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 13:51
From: Curtis Holmes
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hi Zack
I can't look up the Chemstation product online, is it a chlorinated caustic?   I'm wondering if you are warm rinsing the tank after cleaning then the chlorine or even the caustic salts are drying onto the side of the tank as the rinse water evaporates?    I could see chlorine or some other additive in your chemical "burning" the stainless if its drying on the surface and then it would be very difficult to remove.     The discoloration also reminds me of chlorine damage we've seen from using chlorinated city water during CIP, I would make sure you are carbon filtering all of your water

Is the stain the same shapes and in the same exact locations every week?    You could try another brand of caustic for a week or two or you could try rinsing with acidic water  after your caustic cleaning and see if the problem goes away completely.

------------------------------
Curtis Holmes
Alaskan Brewing Co

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 13:58
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

It's standard caustic from Chemstation. I don't have the actual data on what its made up of. It's product 50177.

We passivated the tanks using the Birko method originally, acid cip every quarter or so.

I can post our water report but it's fairly neutral.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 11:25
From: Aaron Brodniak
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hey Zachary,

Can you tell us a bit more about the components of the caustic you are using? Regimen for acid washing and re-passivation of tanks? Also curious about the characteristics of the water you use.

Beers,

Aaron

------------------------------
Aaron Brodniak
Consultant
Edmonds WA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Zack

This may be the start of chlorobutyl breakdown in your hose. Not sure how old your hoses are but this could be the issue. It's very hard to get off of stainless steel. I high concentrate citric acid may help.


------------------------------
Rob Williams
Sales Manager
Alliance Hose & Rubber
Elmhurst, Il
708-932-8386
rwilliams@alliancehose.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Did you try an acid cycle?  If so when was the last time you ran acid?   Looks like salt build up from what I can see.  The Chemstation caustic has done something like this to us when we used to use it and we found that we needed to rinse immediately and not let the caustic dry at all on the tank.  We had to run a powdered alkaline cycle to get it off.   Just some thoughts

------------------------------
Landon Swanson
Head Brewer
Pueblo Vida Brewing
Tucson AZ
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Update: I think I solved the problem by running the caustic and rinse cycles at a lower temperature, around 130F.

Thanks for all the input.

------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2022 16:32
From: Zachary Gordon
Subject: Staining/Deposits after caustic CIP

Hello,

I keep getting these stains/deposists after running a caustic cycle and then rinsing. The only way to remove them is to physically scrub them with acid on a sponge. I have tried many things to resolve this issue but can't figure it out. Please let me know if you have seen this before or if you are able to point me in the right direction.

Thank you,
Zach


------------------------------
Zachary Gordon
Old Thunder Brewing
Pittsburgh PA
------------------------------