Ask The Brewmasters

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

All these DO???s are relatively high. - We are in control with BBT's and pre-filler levels. <20ppb. But thats not to say the pump is causing sporadic pull in of DO that hasnt been detected. Have you seen this before? 

Are you sure the filler/filling process is the root cause of O2 pickup? We are getting <20 ppb on a pre-filler sampling point and in the Bright beer tank. 

Do you test the beer DO upstream of
the filler (i.e.- beer before it enters the filler or in the BBT, at least.?) - Yes - see above

Do you have a pump feeding  the filler? Yes we do, and a theory exists that this is potentially a source - could you advise how to tell if it is? 

If the DO is relatively low entering the filler then you can assume you???ve more or
less isolated the issue to the  filler/filling process itself???otherwise, if possible, you need to work backwards sampling beer at various points to try and locate source of pickup. - We know the air in the Widgets cannot be completely purged and have confirmed this with another large US based Nitrogenated canning line. 

Side note..10 mins shaking seems excessive???I???m more familiar with SOP???s stipulating a few minutes. - We have found this to be absolute as the headspace is so large including the widget space, it has proven the most accurate means for Measuring the N2 ppm in the can, which is critical to controlling can pressure. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

Hi Anonymous,

I agree with Phil that these DOs are quite high, however I have NO experience with nitrogenated products so not sure if these values are considered normal. To provide perspective, we run a 16:4 rotary filler and seamer with all carbonated beer (2.5-2.85v/v depending on brand). Our TPO upper limit is 40ppb with operating ranges for 25-40ppb. 

There are a lot of variables in controlling O2 pickup during filling and providing some more info would help track down some root causes. 

• I assume with 14 valves this is a counter pressure rotary line, but would you confirm? 
• What are your unshaken can values? These would let you know if the ingress is during the transfer of beer to the can (pump, bowl, etc) or after. If these are high, then perhaps it is the pump - have seals been changed regularly? 
• You did not specify, but are these just the shaken can values or are they plugged into the V/U equation to estimate package TPO? Regardless, in my experience excessively high and variable shaken DO or TPO tend to be related to after fill operations: conveyor transitions (shaking cans), FOB formation, dwell time b/t filler and seamer, bubble breaker (pressure + flow), and undercover gassing (pressure + flow). 
  • Don't underestimate the value of a steady transfer of cans off of the filling carousel and into the seamer. If any beer is shaking out, O2 is coming in.
• Is the beer carbonated or nitrogenated prior to filling or are you filling still and relying on the liquid N2? If the latter, how do you normally control headspace O2 during post fill and seaming? Are you using cover gas? If so, is it CO2 or N2? Could purity have changed?

Any other relevant info would be great. There are a lot of canning experts on this forum who will all likely have some intel. 

All these DO???s are relatively high. - We are in control with BBT's and pre-filler levels. <20ppb. But thats not to say the pump is causing sporadic pull in of DO that hasnt been detected. Have you seen this before? 

Are you sure the filler/filling process is the root cause of O2 pickup? We are getting <20 ppb on a pre-filler sampling point and in the Bright beer tank. 

Do you test the beer DO upstream of
the filler (i.e.- beer before it enters the filler or in the BBT, at least.?) - Yes - see above

Do you have a pump feeding  the filler? Yes we do, and a theory exists that this is potentially a source - could you advise how to tell if it is? 

If the DO is relatively low entering the filler then you can assume you???ve more or
less isolated the issue to the  filler/filling process itself???otherwise, if possible, you need to work backwards sampling beer at various points to try and locate source of pickup. - We know the air in the Widgets cannot be completely purged and have confirmed this with another large US based Nitrogenated canning line. 

Side note..10 mins shaking seems excessive???I???m more familiar with SOP???s stipulating a few minutes. - We have found this to be absolute as the headspace is so large including the widget space, it has proven the most accurate means for Measuring the N2 ppm in the can, which is critical to controlling can pressure. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

All these DO???s are relatively high. - We are in control with BBT's and pre-filler levels. <20ppb. But thats not to say the pump is causing sporadic pull in of DO that hasnt been detected. Have you seen this before? 

Are you sure the filler/filling process is the root cause of O2 pickup? We are getting <20 ppb on a pre-filler sampling point and in the Bright beer tank. 

Do you test the beer DO upstream of
the filler (i.e.- beer before it enters the filler or in the BBT, at least.?) - Yes - see above

Do you have a pump feeding  the filler? Yes we do, and a theory exists that this is potentially a source - could you advise how to tell if it is? 

If the DO is relatively low entering the filler then you can assume you???ve more or
less isolated the issue to the  filler/filling process itself???otherwise, if possible, you need to work backwards sampling beer at various points to try and locate source of pickup. - We know the air in the Widgets cannot be completely purged and have confirmed this with another large US based Nitrogenated canning line. 

Side note..10 mins shaking seems excessive???I???m more familiar with SOP???s stipulating a few minutes. - We have found this to be absolute as the headspace is so large including the widget space, it has proven the most accurate means for Measuring the N2 ppm in the can, which is critical to controlling can pressure. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

So I took a stab at graphing some of the data (see attached, and picture), and I'm not sure I see a compelling case for a difference DO by filler head with the notable exception of head number 10. I also think there might be a sampling/measurement technique misstep when measuring the DO, because the data are pretty noisy overall and I don't doubt that there is an issue somewhere.

A cause of filler head DO pickup I have seen before is the result of trapped cleaning chemicals and gas bubbles around o-rings and seals that had become unseated, jammed, or just worn, leading to voids where matter could accumulate. If you haven't done a filler teardown already (and I suspect you may have), it's probably time to do so and replace as many seals as you can justify (as they are usually much cheaper to see to now than continuing to worry and should delay the next teardown).

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

-Matt

All these DO???s are relatively high. - We are in control with BBT's and pre-filler levels. <20ppb. But thats not to say the pump is causing sporadic pull in of DO that hasnt been detected. Have you seen this before? 

Are you sure the filler/filling process is the root cause of O2 pickup? We are getting <20 ppb on a pre-filler sampling point and in the Bright beer tank. 

Do you test the beer DO upstream of
the filler (i.e.- beer before it enters the filler or in the BBT, at least.?) - Yes - see above

Do you have a pump feeding  the filler? Yes we do, and a theory exists that this is potentially a source - could you advise how to tell if it is? 

If the DO is relatively low entering the filler then you can assume you???ve more or
less isolated the issue to the  filler/filling process itself???otherwise, if possible, you need to work backwards sampling beer at various points to try and locate source of pickup. - We know the air in the Widgets cannot be completely purged and have confirmed this with another large US based Nitrogenated canning line. 

Side note..10 mins shaking seems excessive???I???m more familiar with SOP???s stipulating a few minutes. - We have found this to be absolute as the headspace is so large including the widget space, it has proven the most accurate means for Measuring the N2 ppm in the can, which is critical to controlling can pressure. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

All these DO???s are relatively high. - We are in control with BBT's and pre-filler levels. <20ppb. But thats not to say the pump is causing sporadic pull in of DO that hasnt been detected. Have you seen this before? 

Are you sure the filler/filling process is the root cause of O2 pickup? We are getting <20 ppb on a pre-filler sampling point and in the Bright beer tank. 

Do you test the beer DO upstream of
the filler (i.e.- beer before it enters the filler or in the BBT, at least.?) - Yes - see above

Do you have a pump feeding  the filler? Yes we do, and a theory exists that this is potentially a source - could you advise how to tell if it is? 

If the DO is relatively low entering the filler then you can assume you???ve more or
less isolated the issue to the  filler/filling process itself???otherwise, if possible, you need to work backwards sampling beer at various points to try and locate source of pickup. - We know the air in the Widgets cannot be completely purged and have confirmed this with another large US based Nitrogenated canning line. 

Side note..10 mins shaking seems excessive???I???m more familiar with SOP???s stipulating a few minutes. - We have found this to be absolute as the headspace is so large including the widget space, it has proven the most accurate means for Measuring the N2 ppm in the can, which is critical to controlling can pressure. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

Hi Fellow Brewer,

Probably air pick up from the Head Space.

Try manipulating your Undercover gasser and bubble breaker. Also level of beer carbonation. 

I've even seen a jetter on a bottle filler work on can fillers.

Good Luck

Dan Carey 

New Glarus Brewing 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

In terms of manipulating the Jetter or Tunnel have you seen it carried out anywhere that the Tunnel has a stone feed so the gas sparges evenly across the top of the tunnel? At the moment its just 4 outlets through 12mm vents with a perspex covering on each side. 

Hi Fellow Brewer,

Probably air pick up from the Head Space.

Try manipulating your Undercover gasser and bubble breaker. Also level of beer carbonation. 

I've even seen a jetter on a bottle filler work on can fillers.

Good Luck

Dan Carey 

New Glarus Brewing 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

In terms of manipulating the Jetter or Tunnel have you seen it carried out anywhere that the Tunnel has a stone feed so the gas sparges evenly across the top of the tunnel? At the moment its just 4 outlets through 12mm vents with a perspex covering on each side. 

Hi Fellow Brewer,

Probably air pick up from the Head Space.

Try manipulating your Undercover gasser and bubble breaker. Also level of beer carbonation. 

I've even seen a jetter on a bottle filler work on can fillers.

Good Luck

Dan Carey 

New Glarus Brewing 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much. 

Hi all, two separate items to ask about here. 

1. Bowl level - 50% - If you go higher than 50% I assume the impact of CO2 pickup in the bowl is slowed down? More over the volume of liquid helps slow down the speed of the temperature rise? 
2. Fobbing - if the temperature at filling varies, so too does your level of fobbing in the filling / dwell time?

All connected to solving the DO issue 

Thanks

In terms of manipulating the Jetter or Tunnel have you seen it carried out anywhere that the Tunnel has a stone feed so the gas sparges evenly across the top of the tunnel? At the moment its just 4 outlets through 12mm vents with a perspex covering on each side. 

Hi Fellow Brewer,

Probably air pick up from the Head Space.

Try manipulating your Undercover gasser and bubble breaker. Also level of beer carbonation. 

I've even seen a jetter on a bottle filler work on can fillers.

Good Luck

Dan Carey 

New Glarus Brewing 

Friends, I have one of those problems we all relish solving from afar but wish we won't ever have in our Brewery!

We are seeing an unpredictable DO result head to head on a 14-head canning line for 500ml Ardagh Widget Cans.

In the past I've always found DO issues to be in purging settings, purging before sending beer over, dwell times or leaks. But I have never seen an issue I can't isolate to an area.

The Data below is a 14-head assessment of DO using an Anton Paar Carbo QC with a 5-second head space flush before rinsing using zero oxygen nitrogen push gas and a timer for the rinse length. Before measurement, all samples were attemperated to 20 degrees and then shaken for 10 minutes on a wrist action shaker. Fill levels were consistently at or within 0.3% of the Nominal. 

We have one seaming head and one nitrogen doser. Can moisture drip off the doser? I thought it would just freeze? 

We are aware of air caught inside the widgets, but the table below surely should have some consistency in spite of that?

Any technical knowledge share on this would be fantastic, even just sharing an experience. Thank you very much.