Ask The Brewmasters

Hi everyone, 

We have been having issues on our 3.5bbl Ss Brewtech pilot system with a large buildup of what we think is protein/beta-glucan/glycolipid (see attached) during hot break and boil. We have also seen a large amount of it when we clean out the LT and lift the grates up. The main issue we are having is that the protein globs get stuck to the heating element and then scorch the wort to a point to where we have to dump the wort completely. The latest grist bill we had this happen on is as follows: 

Pilsen: 84.7%

Flaked Brown Rice: 10.2%

Flaked Rye: 5.1% 

Single Infusion - 149F mash, 60min rest, vorlauf till clear, start lauter etc. I have tried using different Pilsen base from 3 separate maltsters and got the same effect. I have also tried other recipes with different malts/adjuncts as I was thinking the culprit could have been the flaked rye. Still the same issue. Dan Bies at Briess recommended that we try sparging at 160F instead of 170F in order to see about preventing any gelatinization of the proteins - this did not change the outcome. Dan also did a trial with the same bill and could not replicate our results. 

This doesn't happen every time and all of our brews are single infusion. I have thought about trying bioglucanase to see if it is more of a beta-glucan or arabinoxylan issue. 

Has anyone else experienced this or can point me in the right direction? 

Thanks in advance, 

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
Two Harbors MN
(218) 834-5800
------------------------------

Have you tried removing the rice? We do a cereal mash with a ground rice product (so different than a flaked product) and it can get very clumpy if it is not mixed well.

------------------------------
Lisa Allen
Head Brewer/Owner
Heater Allen Brewing/Gold Dot Beer
McMinnville OR
(503) 472-4898
------------------------------

Hi Lisa, 

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
Two Harbors MN
(218) 834-5800
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2024 13:17
From: Lisa Allen
Subject: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Have you tried removing the rice? We do a cereal mash with a ground rice product (so different than a flaked product) and it can get very clumpy if it is not mixed well.

------------------------------
Lisa Allen
Head Brewer/Owner
Heater Allen Brewing/Gold Dot Beer
McMinnville OR
(503) 472-4898
------------------------------

Unfortunately I don't have a solution for you, but I do think you're right that it's protein related (based on the difference in your two recipes).

It looks like the SS Brewtech system now is built with an external calandria, probably because a lot of folks were running into a similar issues with the heating element coming into direct contact with the wort. 

------------------------------
Lisa Allen
Head Brewer/Owner
Heater Allen Brewing/Gold Dot Beer
McMinnville OR
(503) 472-4898
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2024 14:12
From: Patrick McMahon
Subject: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Hi Lisa, 

We just brewed a fresh hop lager the other day with a grist bill of the following: 

Pilsen - 87.2%

Carapils - 7.7%

Munich 10L - 5.1%

We encountered the same issue as described in my original posting, but thankfully it did not scorch. The buildup is enough to where we are skimming it from the kettle during hot break to try and help reduce the amount. 

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
Two Harbors MN
(218) 834-5800
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2024 13:17
From: Lisa Allen
Subject: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Have you tried removing the rice? We do a cereal mash with a ground rice product (so different than a flaked product) and it can get very clumpy if it is not mixed well.

------------------------------
Lisa Allen
Head Brewer/Owner
Heater Allen Brewing/Gold Dot Beer
McMinnville OR
(503) 472-4898

Hey Patrick, this sounds frustrating! The first thing that comes to mind is your mill and crush: have you done a grist analysis on your crush? I wonder if you're too many fines and/or flour. Also, even if you're crush is within the range of what it "should be", it may be worth experimenting with different crush levels.

Also, I have the feeling that the length of your vorlauf isn't an issue, but have you tried vorlaufing less? Greg Noonan argues that excessive vorlaufing can lead to excessive lipids extraction (he also argues that a small amount of draft can actually improve trub coagulation) (page 150, New Brewing Lager Beer). To be clear, I'm not saying that your vorlauf is too long, just that vorlaufing until clear on your brewhouse might be too long and might not be necessary. If anything, I would expect a longer vorlauf to pull out the proteins you're finding. Like I said, I don't think the length of your vorlauf is the cause of your issue, but I wanted to toss it out there as an idea.

Good luck!

Nassim

------------------------------
Nassim Sultan
Brewer/Free Agent
nassimsultan@gmail.com
------------------------------

We do use a less than ideal mill for our pilot system so it is something I can look into further, however we have used the same mill for 75 brews before this started happening. I'll still run a sieve analysis and see what that yields. 

As for vorlauf, we typically will do 5-10min. We have used Imhoff cones to optimize our vorlauf but since it's a pilot system, the recipes are rarely the same. 

I'm inclined to agree with Lisa about the heating element. I had to replace it once before due to it burning out at the contacts and I wondering if it might be the root cause. We do not see any issue with our main brewhouse which is steam jacketed. 

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
Two Harbors MN
(218) 834-5800
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2024 15:17
From: Nassim Sultan
Subject: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Hey Patrick, this sounds frustrating! The first thing that comes to mind is your mill and crush: have you done a grist analysis on your crush? I wonder if you're too many fines and/or flour. Also, even if you're crush is within the range of what it "should be", it may be worth experimenting with different crush levels.

Also, I have the feeling that the length of your vorlauf isn't an issue, but have you tried vorlaufing less? Greg Noonan argues that excessive vorlaufing can lead to excessive lipids extraction (he also argues that a small amount of draft can actually improve trub coagulation) (page 150, New Brewing Lager Beer). To be clear, I'm not saying that your vorlauf is too long, just that vorlaufing until clear on your brewhouse might be too long and might not be necessary. If anything, I would expect a longer vorlauf to pull out the proteins you're finding. Like I said, I don't think the length of your vorlauf is the cause of your issue, but I wanted to toss it out there as an idea.

Good luck!

Nassim

------------------------------
Nassim Sultan
Brewer/Free Agent
nassimsultan@gmail.com
------------------------------

Hi Patrick,
It does look like a beta-glucan and Xylan build up with some protein too. I would suggest an enzyme blend that has a beta-glucanase and a Xylanase first. If this clears it up you should be good. If that doesn’t do it, you can try adding a little protease but be careful with proteases they can break down the proteins too far and you will have foam stability issues. Contact your enzyme supplier and see what they recommend.
Regards
Bill Kling
Retired Distiller and Brewer
Sent from my iPhone

Hi there Patrick,

I think a good experiment would be to make the same recipe with a β-Glucanase rest during the mash (45-55 C/ 113-131 F). Consequently, the temperature range for proteinase and peptidase is within that range (47-52 C, 116-125 F). This may result in mash profile differences, but it'll help you narrow down potential root causes. I'd also pair this information with each malt's COA to look at potential correlation between batches and raw materials. Hope this helps!

------------------------------
Christian Mercado Acevedo
Consultant
Caldamentum
Ithaca NY
(607) 304-0032
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-12-2024 10:01
From: Charles Kling
Subject: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Hi Patrick,
It does look like a beta-glucan and Xylan build up with some protein too. I would suggest an enzyme blend that has a beta-glucanase and a Xylanase first. If this clears it up you should be good. If that doesn't do it, you can try adding a little protease but be careful with proteases they can break down the proteins too far and you will have foam stability issues. Contact your enzyme supplier and see what they recommend.
Regards
Bill Kling
Retired Distiller and Brewer
Sent from my iPhone

Wanted to give everyone an update on this. We ran a trial using Laminex Maxflow at a rate of 0.4kg/MT. The grist bill is as follows: 

Malt	%
Pilsen	83.8
Munich Light	7.2
Carapils	5.0
Honey Malt	4.0

Attached is a picture of the kettle toward end of KO. There is still a large buildup of the coagulated mess so it doesn't appear that Bioglucanase is the solution. The Pilsen COA shows a total protein db content of 11.1%, which lines up our historical specs. I have looked at trialing protease as suggested above and I am also talking with Ss Brewtech to see if the boil kettle can be modified to have an external calandria or change to a steam setup. 

If anyone has other suggestions, I'm all ears. 

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
patrick@castledangerbrewery.com
218-830-0629
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10/17/2024 2:26:00 PM
From: Patrick McMahon
Subject: RE: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Wanted to give everyone an update on this. We ran a trial using Laminex Maxflow at a rate of 0.4kg/MT. The grist bill is as follows: 

Malt	%
Pilsen	83.8
Munich Light	7.2
Carapils	5.0
Honey Malt	4.0

Attached is a picture of the kettle toward end of KO. There is still a large buildup of the coagulated mess so it doesn't appear that Bioglucanase is the solution. The Pilsen COA shows a total protein db content of 11.1%, which lines up our historical specs. I have looked at trialing protease as suggested above and I am also talking with Ss Brewtech to see if the boil kettle can be modified to have an external calandria or change to a steam setup. 

If anyone has other suggestions, I'm all ears. 

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
patrick@castledangerbrewery.com
218-830-0629
------------------------------

Hi Patrick,

Based on the photos presented, it looks more like the problem is the heating element.  It may be too hot, and you are starting to scorch the wort, although the color is not (yet) so dark.  There is a recommended limit between heating surface temperature and wort temperature.  I can search my notes, but I'm sure one of our colleagues can provide the figure.  

It is interesting that material seems to build up on the underside of the element.  You also mentioned fresh hopping?  Do the hops get caught on the element and then trap other material in the wort?  Whole hops are normally used?  Pellets?  Other?

If you are using malt from a reputable supplier, then I do not think protein is a problem.  There is most likely no excess of protein, nor would there generally be an excess of soluble protein.  It is unlikely you are purchasing overmodified malt.  A protease may not offer any benefits here.

Careful and up close examination of the material on the elements is needed.  If you can get a sample of the material and examine it under a microscope, that would be useful.  You will need a few different stains to help investigate.   Always fun to look at things under the microscope and you will learn a lot, too.

Both commercial enzyme products mentioned are beta glucanase or beta glucanase/xylanase products.  They will not help to break down any proteins.  For transparency, my company produces Laminex MaxFlow 4G.

Was flaked rye also mentioned in one of the recipes?  The other problem to be aware of is that these enzymes can be inhibited by rye.    Beta glucanase and xylanase will help with wort separation in general, by lowering viscosity, but you need to pick the right one based upon your grist bill.  Wheat and rye are especially problematic in this regard.

My recommendation:  If you cannot change the heating element, then you need to make sure you have very good mixing action in the kettle from start of lauter to end of boil, and even knock-out, depending upon the process and how long it takes for those coils to cool down. This will keep the wort moving and limit contact time and the potential for scorching.  

I would examine the material found under the lauter tun in the same method, too.  

Siebel Institute offers "Beer Deposits: A laboratory guide and pictorial atlas."  I have always found this reference to be very helpful in troubleshooting.  

Feel free to reach out with any questions.

------------------------------
Andrew Fratianni, Dipl. Brew.
Sr. Enzyme Application Specialist
Brewing & Distilling Enzymes
IFF Health & Biosciences
andrew.j.fratianni@iff.com
------------------------------

Hi Andrew, 

Wet hopping was done in the hop back after boil so no interaction with the heating element. We use pellets outside of wet hopping. 

I'm going to run a test brew today after swapping out some 3/4" ID valves for 1.5" ID valves to see if that helps with potential shearing. I'm curious if my pump will handle recirculating the wort during boil - the kettle has an "internal calandria" that is supposed to help recirculation during boil. If I notice the buildup, I will grab a sample and most likely reach out with questions. 

Thanks for the guide recommendation, I'll be sure to get my hands on it. 

Cheers

------------------------------
Patrick McMahon
Head Brewer
Castle Danger Brewery
patrick@castledangerbrewery.com
218-830-0629
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-21-2024 15:18
From: Andrew Fratianni
Subject: Protein Buildup Troubleshooting

Hi Patrick,

Based on the photos presented, it looks more like the problem is the heating element.  It may be too hot, and you are starting to scorch the wort, although the color is not (yet) so dark.  There is a recommended limit between heating surface temperature and wort temperature.  I can search my notes, but I'm sure one of our colleagues can provide the figure.  

It is interesting that material seems to build up on the underside of the element.  You also mentioned fresh hopping?  Do the hops get caught on the element and then trap other material in the wort?  Whole hops are normally used?  Pellets?  Other?

If you are using malt from a reputable supplier, then I do not think protein is a problem.  There is most likely no excess of protein, nor would there generally be an excess of soluble protein.  It is unlikely you are purchasing overmodified malt.  A protease may not offer any benefits here.

Careful and up close examination of the material on the elements is needed.  If you can get a sample of the material and examine it under a microscope, that would be useful.  You will need a few different stains to help investigate.   Always fun to look at things under the microscope and you will learn a lot, too.

Both commercial enzyme products mentioned are beta glucanase or beta glucanase/xylanase products.  They will not help to break down any proteins.  For transparency, my company produces Laminex MaxFlow 4G.

Was flaked rye also mentioned in one of the recipes?  The other problem to be aware of is that these enzymes can be inhibited by rye.    Beta glucanase and xylanase will help with wort separation in general, by lowering viscosity, but you need to pick the right one based upon your grist bill.  Wheat and rye are especially problematic in this regard.

My recommendation:  If you cannot change the heating element, then you need to make sure you have very good mixing action in the kettle from start of lauter to end of boil, and even knock-out, depending upon the process and how long it takes for those coils to cool down. This will keep the wort moving and limit contact time and the potential for scorching.  

I would examine the material found under the lauter tun in the same method, too.  

Siebel Institute offers "Beer Deposits: A laboratory guide and pictorial atlas."  I have always found this reference to be very helpful in troubleshooting.  

Feel free to reach out with any questions.

------------------------------
Andrew Fratianni, Dipl. Brew.
Sr. Enzyme Application Specialist
Brewing & Distilling Enzymes
IFF Health & Biosciences
andrew.j.fratianni@iff.com
------------------------------