Ask The Brewmasters

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Hi everyone, 

I am trying to get an idea of what is actually practical when it comes to loss for both hazy IPA's and fruited (puree) beers. I'd greatly appreciate hearing what you all are doing! I know tank geometry plays a role in a lot of this... There are quite a few factors here, so I am going to break it down into parts. 

Dropping out hop material: 

• How many lbs/barrel total?
• Are you rousing hops? 
• How long before transfer are you finished with rousing process or if you are not rousing?
• Are the hops getting dropped out in full (to beer) or do you want some of this "material" in the finished product and at what temperature?
• What kind of loss do you account for here (in FV)?

Dropping out puree:

• Are you rousing after puree addition?
• How soon after puree addition (and/or rousing) are you dropping out puree and at what temperature?
• What kind of loss do you account for here (in FV)?

Centrifuge Transfer Loss and average NTU numbers:

• If you leave time for the hops to settle and be dropped to beer - how is the 'fuge run and how much transfer loss are you seeing (and at what average turbidity)? 
• If you leave time for puree to settle and be dropped to beer - how is the 'fuge run and how much transfer loss are you seeing (and at what average turbidity)? 

Last thing, does anyone here expect to and/or is successfully sending the beer with essentially all hop material (whether or not still in suspension) to the centrifuge without significant issues?

Thanks a bunch in advance!! 

We do both styles and see a big difference between the two in yield. Fwiw we do not have a centrifuge.

• For Hazy IPAs we typically KO 31-34bbls per "30" bbl turn. Dry hops are added during fermentation and sometimes also post fermentation. We've seen similar yields with Kveiks and English Strains. Hops added during fermentation are not roused; cold dry hop additions are roused 1-2x per day for 3 days following the addition, then dumped. 
  • We typically see very good yields in the BBT on this style - we recently transferred 89 bbls on a "90" bbl brew that had just shy of 2 lbs/bbl of dry hop added during fermentation. This was after a 3 day crashing period and I think 2 days held at 34F in the FV (but we'd have kept it cold longer before moving the beer if we weren't on a schedule to get it out). I think we'd have gotten another 1-3 bbls on the transfer had we been able to let it settle out for a week first.
    • On these beers we don't see a ton of sediment in the cans and are careful to watch the racking arm in the BBT.
    • We don't aim to have hop or yeast sediment in solution, but rather a stable haze. The more sediment floating in the product, the more sludge at the bottom of the can and IMO the more "hop burn" you'll experience when consuming. But, we're not a brewery known for its IPAs so definitely take all of our process with that grain of salt.
• For Fruited/puree beers we add it at the end of fermentation and recirc the beer to mix it all up, then give the beer another 3-5 days to ferment the sugars before crashing. Despite sometimes adding several barrels of volume to the tank in the form of liquid puree, we tend to see surprisingly bad yields on this style. We haven't done a big fruit additon in some months but the last I can recall was maybe 24-25bbl yiled on a 30 bbl brew. So despite adding volume to the tank we lost beer, especially compared to the hazy.

------------------------------
Chris Davison
President, District Midwest
Head Brewer
Wolf's Ridge Brewing

chris@wolfsridgebrewing.com

pronouns: he/him
------------------------------

Hi Chris,

Lot of variables, one thing that comes to mind is pectin, if the brewers are doing a yeast removal from the tank, there could be a lot of fruit pectin that is clouding up the liquid and the brewers are sending more beer down the drain until they reach clear beer before packaging or rack.  Pectic enzyme/pectinase may help if this is the culprit or longer cold conditioning time.  Since it is just a few barrels, You could measure your tank drains by weight or volume to test out if there is a significant process difference between fruited and non-fruited beers.  I'm sure others may have some other ideas to look into too.

------------------------------
Louwrens Wildschut
Pilot Brewery Lead
Bell's Brewery Inc
Galesburg MI
(269) 250-8146
lwildschut@bellsbeer.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2023 11:47
From: Christopher Davison
Subject: Practical Loss and Dumping Practices for Hazy Products (fruited and IPA's)

We do both styles and see a big difference between the two in yield. Fwiw we do not have a centrifuge.

• For Hazy IPAs we typically KO 31-34bbls per "30" bbl turn. Dry hops are added during fermentation and sometimes also post fermentation. We've seen similar yields with Kveiks and English Strains. Hops added during fermentation are not roused; cold dry hop additions are roused 1-2x per day for 3 days following the addition, then dumped. 
  • We typically see very good yields in the BBT on this style - we recently transferred 89 bbls on a "90" bbl brew that had just shy of 2 lbs/bbl of dry hop added during fermentation. This was after a 3 day crashing period and I think 2 days held at 34F in the FV (but we'd have kept it cold longer before moving the beer if we weren't on a schedule to get it out). I think we'd have gotten another 1-3 bbls on the transfer had we been able to let it settle out for a week first.
    • On these beers we don't see a ton of sediment in the cans and are careful to watch the racking arm in the BBT.
    • We don't aim to have hop or yeast sediment in solution, but rather a stable haze. The more sediment floating in the product, the more sludge at the bottom of the can and IMO the more "hop burn" you'll experience when consuming. But, we're not a brewery known for its IPAs so definitely take all of our process with that grain of salt.
• For Fruited/puree beers we add it at the end of fermentation and recirc the beer to mix it all up, then give the beer another 3-5 days to ferment the sugars before crashing. Despite sometimes adding several barrels of volume to the tank in the form of liquid puree, we tend to see surprisingly bad yields on this style. We haven't done a big fruit additon in some months but the last I can recall was maybe 24-25bbl yiled on a 30 bbl brew. So despite adding volume to the tank we lost beer, especially compared to the hazy.

------------------------------
Chris Davison
President, District Midwest
Head Brewer
Wolf's Ridge Brewing

chris@wolfsridgebrewing.com

pronouns: he/him
------------------------------

Dropping out hop material: 

• How many lbs/barrel total?   My experience with NEIPA's is a loss factor of between 10% - 30% depending on your lbs/bbl dry hopping. @ 4.5 to 5 lbs/bbl expect 20%-25% losses.  
• Are you rousing hops?   No rousing needed.  Hopnik used to dry hop.  Hops added a few degrees P before terminal gravity to allow biotransformation and hop creep to occur. 
• How long before transfer are you finished with rousing process or if you are not rousing?
• Are the hops getting dropped out in full (to beer) or do you want some of this "material" in the finished product and at what temperature?   Yes, the hops are given time to drop out - several days to a week or more if needed.  After terminal gravity is reached, crash cool as normal.
• What kind of loss do you account for here (in FV)?   If you are brewing NEIPs on a large scale and can justify ROI, invest in a decanter centrifuge to recover beer from your hop material.  Flottweg  manufactures them for this purpose.  You can use them for purees as well or any adjunct for that matter.

Dropping out puree:

• Are you rousing after puree addition?  No
• How soon after puree addition (and/or rousing) are you dropping out puree and at what temperature?  Just let the puree to ferment out so you don't get refermentation in packaging, then crash cool as normal and let it settle out prior to centrifuging.
• What kind of loss do you account for here (in FV)?  Depends on puree additions obviously.  The higher the puree addition, the higher the losses.

Centrifuge Transfer Loss and average NTU numbers:

• If you leave time for the hops to settle and be dropped to beer - how is the 'fuge run and how much transfer loss are you seeing (and at what average turbidity)? 
• If you leave time for puree to settle and be dropped to beer - how is the 'fuge run and how much transfer loss are you seeing (and at what average turbidity)? 

Last thing, does anyone here expect to and/or is successfully sending the beer with essentially all hop material (whether or not still in suspension) to the centrifuge without significant issues?

------------------------------
Adam Stack
Plant Manager
D.G. Yuengling & Sons Brewing Co
Tampa FL
(813) 972-8519
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