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  • 1.  PCR issue with Hazy beers.

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 04-11-2023 11:47
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    My brewery is having a new PCR issue with false positives for Lactobacillus in Hazy beers. I sent beer to an outside lab and they did not detect any beer spoilers?

    Anyone else experiencing this issue?

    Also, what are people using for enrichment media? I have heard NBB, MRS and Fast Orange. Any suggestions from veteran micro people?



  • 2.  RE: PCR issue with Hazy beers.

    Posted 04-12-2023 12:41


    Without enrichment, hazy or darker beers can easily throw false positives due to the ocular based testing with PCR. (Added note: finger prints or smudges on top of the PCR test tube going into the machine can do the same thing). In my experience, the false positives would also typically show up on the lacto/pedio channel. 

    I use NBB broth and enrich all hazy, stout, mid fermentation, and even our finished reds for 48hrs to eliminate this issue. 

    Hope this helps!
    Feel free to reach me directly, too

    Jazzy Lauder (she/her)
    jazzy@pelicanbrewing.com



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    Jazzy Lauder
    Brewery Microbiologist
    Pelican Brewing Co
    Pacific CityOR
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  • 3.  RE: PCR issue with Hazy beers.

    Posted 04-12-2023 12:41

    Hello,
      False positives are known to occur when there is excess material in a sample.  Hazy beers, being what they are, are heavily loaded with lots of extra material.  This could be throwing off your results.  If you are not already, I would suggest doing an additional filter step to help reduce the quantity of material in your sample.  .5um Eppendorf filter tubes work great.  If I may ask, what platform are you using and are you performing a lysis step?
    As far as enriching your sample to increase your detection threshold, MRS should get the job done.
    Kory



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    Kory Davis
    QC and Propagation Specialist
    The Brewing Science Institute
    Woodland Park, Co
    719-482-4895 ext. 3
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  • 4.  RE: PCR issue with Hazy beers.

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 04-12-2023 16:59
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    We are currently enriching in MRS with roughly 48 hours of enrichment time.  We do add less beer to the MRS than we do with our non-hazy beers.  Before we do the lysis step, we clean-up extracellular debris with a low RPM spin down.  We are currently using Bitoecon kits with a Roche lightcycler 480.  We have confirmed with Biotecon that these are positive hits for lacto./pedio.  We have not had any luck with culturing cells using traditional plating methods, hence the posting.




  • 5.  RE: PCR issue with Hazy beers.

    Posted 12-11-2023 16:11

    I'd recommend doing an additional filter step with .5um filter tubes after the lysis but before the thermal cycle.  This should help with getting rid of any remaining debris.  Do you add a chelator to the sample, like EDTA, to assist with non-specific binding?  If you have excessive PCR cycles this can also amplify any non-specific binding that is occurring.  For recovery of the lacto/pedio NBB and MRS are both great choices.  I'd also recommend plating the sample on LMDA both aerobically and anaerobically.  



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    Kory Davis
    QC and Propagation Specialist
    The Brewing Science Institute
    Woodland Park, Co
    719-482-4895 ext. 3
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  • 6.  RE: PCR issue with Hazy beers.

    Posted 04-21-2023 15:11
    Edited by Lars Larson 04-21-2023 19:16

    We enrich all of our samples for 72 hours with FastOrange for lacto/pedio screening using PIKA kits with Open qPCR.  Thus far ,we have not had any issues with false positives, however I do minimize the pellet size by extraction and wash 3 times before lysing.  PIKA Weihenstephan is based in Germany, but the Beer Spoile Screening kits are readily in the States.  I would be happy to share other details with you if needed.



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    Bob Willis
    Raised Grain Brewing Company
    Waukesha, WI
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