Ask The Brewmasters

 View Only
  • 1.  Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 07-22-2022 22:28
    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous

    I'm curious how other breweries read their malt COAs and make adjustments to their mash temperatures. 

    Do breweries pull a wort sample and do a forced fermentation? And then based on the FF results,make a mash temperature adjustment?

    Do breweries make mash temperature adjustments based off the COA before they have used the malt? If so, what parameters are you analyzing?

    How can we be more proactive with our incoming malt vs reacting to the malt and make mash temperature changes based on final gravity?

    What advice do you have?


  • 2.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-23-2022 18:49

    A seemingly simple question that will yield complex answers. Ultimately I think the weight you should put into your COA and the presumed influence it will have on your production facility is brewery dependent. We operate two brewhouses: a 50bbl automated 5-vessel system w/ a wet mill and a 15bbl manual 4-vessel system w/ an old 2-roller mill. I look at malt COAs very closely for use on the larger system but don't give it much weight regarding the smaller system. I've found the inherent variation associated with the equipment (primarily MT, LT, and the mill) as well as the operators is greater than variation seen on a COA. Not that it isn't important, it just plays a much smaller role in decision making. 

    To answer your specific questions:

    • We pull FF samples on every batch and use this to drive subsequent mash regimes: time, temperature, and steps. 
    • We rarely make decisions solely based on COAs, typically we look for trends in attenuation that align with COA changes. I am primarily looking at DP, AA, S/T, and FAN.*
    • To be proactive I would trend a few key variables on your COA to your attenuation. Find out what the primary drivers are for you - depending on your equipment you may find strong or weak correlations. As mentioned we have strong correlations with our large system and weak correlations with our smaller system.
    • My next suggestion is to understand what process variables cause the most variation in your system. On both our brewhouses we find that mash time is strongly correlated to attenuation and will adjust both temp and rest time accordingly. On the older system, we also find that grist composition plays a role in attenuation in addition to extract. Almost without fail, will a slight mill adjustment bring attenuation back in check. I find grist composition to be extremely important especially if you are using a M/LT combi vessel.
    *there are a lot more variables at play that aren't on your COA, but that is another discussion all together. 

    I hope this helps. Feel free to reach out for any specifics. 


    ------------------------------
    Campbell Morrissy
    Head Brewer
    pFriem Family Brewers

    PhD Candidate
    OSU - Barley Project
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-24-2022 19:36
    I would expect variations in Calc OG's and I would expect in-house specifications based on the repeatability (quality) of the analyses and the nature of the craft beer.

    Experience tells me that the OG and AE should be watched and trends monitored until action is required.  That action might be as simple as adding or reducing grains or it might be indicative of unequal temperatures during mashing.  Failed thermometers are not unusual.

    Combi vessels like MT/LT with manual mixing are famous for irregularities.

    Lab Rapid Ferms can be unreliable but they can also give warnings if compared to actual AE's. Use one type of yeast for all brands.

    I would also suggest that any brewhouse changes be monitored with sensory evaluations.

    Jim


    ------------------------------
    James Holden
    Brewing Consultant
    Retired but Busy
    jholden007@hotmail.com
    Canada/US/Mexico
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-26-2022 21:54
    Hi Campbell,

    Regarding your comment, "We pull FF samples on every batch and use this to drive subsequent mash regimes: time, temperature, and steps", can you share resources/references that discuss the specifics on how to adjust time, temp, and steps (TTS) based on forced ferment attenuation? TTS is a relatively complex set of variables (virtually infinite combinations) whereas forced ferment attenuation gives attenuation but no direct measurement of any of the underlying causal determinants of attenuation. I am therefore very interested in learning about how brewers deal with this in practice, and how they learn to deal with it.

    Cheers,
    Jake

    ------------------------------
    Jacob Humphries | MPH MBiostat
    PhD Candidate
    School of Life and Environmental Sciences
    Sydney Institute of Agriculture
    Faculty of Science
    THE UNIVERSITY OF SYDNEY
    L7-WS-17, Level 7, LEES Building (F22), Eastern Avenue | NSW | 2006
    T +61 4 2201 1334
    E jacob.humphries@sydney.edu.au
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-27-2022 13:37
    Our lab has tried using method ASBC Wort-5 (Yeast Fermentable Extract, aka "forced ferments") and several variations on it.  But we have had trouble getting meaningful results from it.  In theory, the attenuation of the force-fermented sample should be the same or greater than that of the same wort in production fermentation.  But this is not always the case.  I was gratified to see that Dr. Xiang Yin got similar results from the method as our lab did, with production fermentations attenuating on average drier than the laboratory forced fermentations (see pg 99 of his new book MALT, published by the ASBC).

    ------------------------------
    Cullen Dwyer
    QA Manager
    Wachusett Brewing Co
    Westminster MA
    (978) 874-9965x160
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-28-2022 10:06
    I did a quick analysis of the data in Fig 8.3 in Yin's 2021 Malt book to which Cullen Dwyer referred. In summary, 20% of FF gravities were greater than the corresponding production gravity, and among these, the difference in gravities was relatively small (mean 0.13P).

    There are 15 total unique forced fermentation gravity values of which 8 (53%) have 1 (and no more than 1) production gravity greater than the FF gravity. Each unique FF gravity value has between 1 and 4 production gravity values, i.e., replicate measurements (mean of 2.7 production gravities per FF gravity value). Overall, only 15 (20%) production gravities are higher than the corresponding FF gravity, and among these, the production gravity was on average only 0.13P above the FF gravity (min 0.1P, max 0.2P). The data is presented to the nearest 0.1P, so the differences between some of these could be exaggerated due to rounding. Focusing on the trend line could mislead one to conclude that production gravities are equally distributed around the corresponding FF gravities because an assumption of linear regression is that values are normally distributed around the regression line.


    ------------------------------
    Jacob Humphries | PhD Researcher
    Faculty of Science, School of Life and Environmental Sciences, Sydney Institute of Agriculture
    WS-17, Level 7, LEES Building F22
    CNR Barff Rd & City Rd (deliveries to Barff Rd loading dock)
    The University of Sydney | NSW | 2006
    +61 2 8627 7618 | +61 422 011 334 (mobile)
    jacob.humphries@sydney.edu.au I sydney.edu.au
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-28-2022 13:45
    Re. forced ferments, we see consistent results for lagers between our forces and our in BT gravity. We see a larger delta in our ales primarily due to hop creep, with BT *P consistently 0.2-0.3 lower than the force. That said, we feel confident in what our forces tell us of brewhouse performance. Again, it is something we've calibrated to our process specifically. 

    To answer Jake's question: I agree there are many possible combinations of variables to adjust grain handling and mash parameters. As mentioned in my earlier post much of this comes down to understanding one's equipment. Especially in the craft world each brewhouse is unique (MLT combi v. MT + LT; quality of MT agitation and heat transfer; Mill - 2-roller, 4-roller; etc). Understanding the variation in your process + general understanding of manipulating mashing protocols can provide insight as to what levers to pull and what combination of variables is most impactful. So by combining FF attenuation w/ process knowledge one can make meaningful changes to brewing parameters. That is kind of a long, fancy way of saying it is a lot of trial and error. 

    ------------------------------
    Campbell Morrissy
    Head Brewer
    pFriem Family Brewers

    PhD Candidate
    OSU - Barley Project
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Malt COAs and Mash Adjustments

    Posted 07-28-2022 13:44
    I just wanted to comment on this thread because I have some years experience in this both from the malt quality and brewing sides.

    It is critical to utilize malt quality trends from individual suppliers in making the decision for proactive adjustments.  The reason for this is that the inherent laboratory error in all of the malt analysis are significantly high that different malts that have the same analysis will act quite differently in the mash mixer.

    For two major brewers I used pretty much diastatic power alone in practicing proactive mashing adjustments in order to control final attenuation.   I believe the expected 95% confidence interval for diastatic power performed on a single sample within the same laboratory ranges from 4 L to 11 Lintner, which means you will see lots of variation in your supply analysis trend that is not real but merely inherent analytical error.  The effect of temperature adjustments you make based on DP is dependent upon your equipment and process capabilities, but in my experience in very large systems a true difference of only 6 units diastatic power will require on the order of 2 degree F temperature adjustment, and for a brewer I think that is a lot of temperature adjustment.   And also in my experience merely 0.5 degree F temperature adjustment does influence your final attenuation.

    For attenuation control we measured what some brewers call "Ratio", and for those of you who have never used that it is the extract remaining in the beer (In Plato) divided by the alcohol content of the beer (in weight %).  So for low calorie beers you would have a ratio on the order of 0.4, and for much heavier beers you would get well over a ratio of 2.  Ratio also has a very large inherent laboratory error so trends of your ratio are necessary to help prevent you from over-reacting.  Forced fermentation attenuation also has a huge inherent laboratory error, and it is also malt AND yeast dependent, so be careful with proactive changes, unless you really trust the value on the analyses, beer and raw materials, and that something didn't just crap out in your process.

    Sorry this turned into a lecture.


    ------------------------------
    Vincent Coonce
    Everything Malt and Beer Consultant
    Optimal Process Solutions
    Reedsville WI
    (414) 550-4403
    ------------------------------