Ask The Brewmasters

  • 1.  Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-15-2024 14:48

    Hi everyone.

    I am from Quebec/Canada, we have more and more local micro-malters who produces high quality malt from local barley. In the past, some of us had identified a special flavor that lots of us associated with the barley of the area which was often described as Grapelike, or Chardonnay like. With time the malters have refine their technics, but some still say they find it in the local malt made from local barley. While tasting beers made with these malts blindfold with many other brewers, nobody wrote this flavor in their description, but still many brewers (often more conventional or rigid) say they find this flavor in beers made with local barley.

    My question is: Does anyone has a scientific explanation of how this flavor could have been created in malts (Where it comes from) and why some manage to rule it out of the malt in the brewery while other does not? What is the compound associated with this flavor?

    Thanks for your help

     

    DOMINIC CHARBONNEAU

    VP PRODUCTION & BRASSEUR EN CHEF

     

    B 450 250-2611, POSTE 223

    SF 1 855 650-2611

    3755, RUE PICARD, PORTE 2

    SAINT-HYACINTHE (QUÉBEC) J2S 1H3

     



  • 2.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-21-2024 19:59

    Hi Dominic,

    Could the flavor you're describing be staling or oxidation? For me, white grape juice is a sensory indicator of early stage oxidation, especially in pale beers. While I've never tasted it in malt, perhaps it's the same phenomenon. 



    ------------------------------
    Adam Bartles
    Denali Brewing Co
    Talkeetna, AK
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  • 3.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-22-2024 15:52

    Hey Adam,

    What kind of beers are you brewing with those malts? I wonder if that may result in some specific beers that are fermented with particular yeast strains more prone to unbound thiols from malts?

    Cheers
    Marcos



    ------------------------------
    Marcos Bardelli
    Obsolete Brewing Co
    Dauphin MB
    (204) 647-6641
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  • 4.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-25-2024 13:19

    Hi Dominic,

    I can't speak for craft malt or Canadian craft malt having a grapelike flavor. However, we experience grapelike aromas and flavors when using higher concentrations of Munich type malts. For instance, we recently canned a batch of our Munich Dunkel which uses 75% Munich (a mix of light and dark Munich malts). It definitely has a Concorde Grape like aroma and flavor that we have picked up. Doesn't really take away from the accompanying malt/hop aromas/flavors, but definitely there.

    Something to keep in mind when using higher %s of Munich or similar malts.

    Best,



    ------------------------------
    Geoff Gyles
    Head Brewer
    Northwoods Brewing Co
    Northwood NH
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-26-2024 13:42

    Geoff,

    It will be yeast strain dependent and I can't speak for other yeast companies, but at Lallemand we have done testing for naturally occurring beta-lyase activity (the enzyme responsible for liberating bound thiols).  Both our Munich Classic (bavarian hefeweizen strain) and our Wit (belgian wit strain, lots of great precursor compounds in coriander) have high naturally occurring levels of beta-lyase.  So it would make sense that these yeast strains are able to work on pre-cursors coming from the malt.  Perhaps someone else could chime in to say whether they have done any testing on different malts types/varietals to know if Munich malt in particular has a lot of bound thiols.



    ------------------------------
    Kyle Somers
    Technical Sales Manager
    Lallemand Brewing
    Santa Rosa CA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-25-2024 16:07

    I first got a grape soda flavor from a Maibock we made at Redhook. It faded within a week of packaging. That beer had only German pilz and Munich malts (munich light and dark, as well as caramunich).

    Every beer after that which had grape soda flavor or aroma also contained some Munich malt.

    Not sure if this is the sole cause of that flavor, but it has been my experience that it is a result of Munich malt.



    ------------------------------
    Alexander Kopf
    Lead Brewer
    Northwoods Brewing Company
    alex@northwoodsbrewingcompany.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-26-2024 10:56

    The Northwoods guys (@Alexander Kopf and @Geoff Gyles) are raising an interesting point about munich malt. I also want to tie in what @Marcos Bardelli had mentioned about yeast strains unbounding thiols from malts. I wanted to tie these two points together because I've heard about lager strains that produce grape-like esters (and I've had a few German beers that have that character). 

    Tying all this back to @Dominic Charbonneau's original post, the question that comes to mind is: are you tasting the grape-like flavor in both ales and lagers? If it's just one or the other, what strain are you using? More broadly, have you used more than one yeast strain in your beers and have you noticed that the grape-like character appears regardless of strain?

    Similarly, I'm curious what yeast strain Northwoods is using for their lagers. Side question for Alex: what yeast strain was Redhook using?

    To be clear, I'm not trying to imply that the issue is yeast and not malt, I'm merely curious to chase down this idea of the interaction between munich malt and certain yeast strains since some strains can produce grape-like esters. I can't help but wonder if it's not necessarily the craft malt Dominic is using but maybe the interaction between the malt and the yeast as Marcos highlighted could be the case.



    ------------------------------
    Nassim Sultan
    Brewer/Free Agent
    nassimsultan@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Grape flavor is malt from Quebec/Canada

    Posted 03-28-2024 14:55

    I have only detected this flavor in lagers. We used Wyeast 2124 at Redhook, and a variety of strains here at Northwoods.



    ------------------------------
    Alexander Kopf
    Lead Brewer
    Northwoods Brewing Company
    alex@northwoodsbrewingcompany.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


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