Ask The Brewmasters

Hi Michael, the Heat Exchanger Return Line should be the head (start) of the Return Glycol Loop. Return flow would move from the HX to the 3000 gallon CLT Tank, then to 30 BBL tank by the kegging system. Continuing to the 60 BBL Tank then back to the Chiller. Currently you have the 60 BBL Tank as the starting point of the Return Loop. I assume you’ll have Balancing Valves on the Main Loop and each Demand point.

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Mike Brown
Cantara Wine & Spirits, Flat Fish Brewing
Camarillo CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772

 

Original Message:
Sent: 5/22/2023 1:22:00 PM
From: Michael Brown
Subject: RE: glycol piping layout

Hi Michael, the Heat Exchanger Return Line should be the head (start) of the Return Glycol Loop. Return flow would move from the HX to the 3000 gallon CLT Tank, then to 30 BBL tank by the kegging system. Continuing to the 60 BBL Tank then back to the Chiller. Currently you have the 60 BBL Tank as the starting point of the Return Loop. I assume you’ll have Balancing Valves on the Main Loop and each Demand point.

------------------------------
Mike Brown
Cantara Wine & Spirits, Flat Fish Brewing
Camarillo CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772

 

Hi Michael!

Exciting times up there! 

Side, but related question, Are you allowing for a bypass loop that allows the glycol to cycle even when there is no demand at a tank or at the heat-X? Our glycol has a by-pass loop which allows for constant circulation.  The heat-x is fed off that bypass loop which reconnects the main loop on the output side. If that makes sense... Basically the Heat-x has it's own separate side chain. 

I do not see any issues with the setup you have here, other than the need for that side chain to keep it all moving around properly. I do not know how cold your need your wort to be on it's way to the FV, but I would think the closer the heat-x is to the chiller the better? Perhaps? Maybe only nominally so...

Just some thoughts. Excited for you guys to get that place rolling!

------------------------------
Jared Smith
Head Brewer
Gyppo Ale Mill
Whitethorn CA
(707) 986-7700
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772

 

Hey Michael,
A problem with the first-in/last-out concept is that it assumes each point of use has the same flow requirements and offers the same amount of restriction.  I would say there is a good chance that your design will not work very well.  I have seen and worked with many different glycol distributions systems and I would say most of them give sub-optimal performance.  If certain tanks refuse to chill, it can be very hard to diagnose the problem without an abundance of pressure gauges, flow-indicators, sight tubes, air-eliminators and thermometers.  If you go with a distribution configuration like the one presented, ask yourself "what will I do if it doesn't work?"  Leave yourself the ability to add instruments and balancing valves in case you need them.

Personally, I favor the installation of dynamic flow-control valves at each point of use: https://flowcon.com/product-groups 
These make glycol-balance issues go away.

------------------------------
Cullen Dwyer
QA Manager
Wachusett Brewing Co
Westminster MA
(978) 874-9965x160
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772

 

It's hard to provide much input based on your proposed routing.  A few things you may want to do are:

1) Install a back pressure control valve between the supply header and the return header so that glycol is constantly flowing when there is no demand from your demand points.

2) Install a circuit setter on each tank so you can individually set your flows based on pressure drop.  Those valves are especially beneficial when you have several tank sizes made by different manufacturers in the same cellar.

3) If your header pressure is constant and you have sufficient flow throughout the system where demand points upstream do not rob flow from downstream demand points, it should not matter where heat exchangers and other types of devices are tied into the system.

4) Find a local mechanical engineer to look over your piping isometrics before installing the system.  You guys have been around for a long time and probably have some customer friends in the trade.  Ask them to charge you for a few hours of review time.  The few hours of engineering review is definitely worth the investment.

Cheers,
Ashton

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772

 

Ashton:  (or anyone else who cares to chime in) 

can you elaborate on the purpose and specifics of the pressure bypass valve? 

I understand the thought process of keeping the entire loop cold so that when you cycle on a tank its immediately hit with a consistent temp. but is it necessary considering the worst case is they are hit with ambient glycol for a short time only? I also cant help but figure by having this valve in place you are using more energy just cooling the rafters. 

I am not against the idea but curious if it would be worth the effort and cost to install.  

any idea what they actually are? is it electronic?

------------------------------
Michael Smith
Head Brewer
Eel River Brewing Co.
Fortuna, CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-23-2023 09:05
From: Ashton Lewis
Subject: glycol piping layout

It's hard to provide much input based on your proposed routing.  A few things you may want to do are:

1) Install a back pressure control valve between the supply header and the return header so that glycol is constantly flowing when there is no demand from your demand points.

2) Install a circuit setter on each tank so you can individually set your flows based on pressure drop.  Those valves are especially beneficial when you have several tank sizes made by different manufacturers in the same cellar.

3) If your header pressure is constant and you have sufficient flow throughout the system where demand points upstream do not rob flow from downstream demand points, it should not matter where heat exchangers and other types of devices are tied into the system.

4) Find a local mechanical engineer to look over your piping isometrics before installing the system.  You guys have been around for a long time and probably have some customer friends in the trade.  Ask them to charge you for a few hours of review time.  The few hours of engineering review is definitely worth the investment.

Cheers,
Ashton

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772

 

The Bypass Valve installed at the far point of the Loop between Supply and Return Lines, maintains chilled flow throughout the system when there is no immediate cooling demand. Based on a pressure differential generated when flow stops due to no individual demand, the valve opens and flow is restored. When any demand occurs the pressure differential will drop and the Bypass valve closes.

This valve maintains a safe operating temperature and pressure of the network.

------------------------------
Mike Brown
Cantara Wine & Spirits, Flat Fish Brewing
Camarillo CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-01-2023 10:19
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Ashton:  (or anyone else who cares to chime in) 

can you elaborate on the purpose and specifics of the pressure bypass valve? 

I understand the thought process of keeping the entire loop cold so that when you cycle on a tank its immediately hit with a consistent temp. but is it necessary considering the worst case is they are hit with ambient glycol for a short time only? I also cant help but figure by having this valve in place you are using more energy just cooling the rafters. 

I am not against the idea but curious if it would be worth the effort and cost to install.  

any idea what they actually are? is it electronic?

------------------------------
Michael Smith
Head Brewer
Eel River Brewing Co.
Fortuna, CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-23-2023 09:05
From: Ashton Lewis
Subject: glycol piping layout

It's hard to provide much input based on your proposed routing.  A few things you may want to do are:

1) Install a back pressure control valve between the supply header and the return header so that glycol is constantly flowing when there is no demand from your demand points.

2) Install a circuit setter on each tank so you can individually set your flows based on pressure drop.  Those valves are especially beneficial when you have several tank sizes made by different manufacturers in the same cellar.

3) If your header pressure is constant and you have sufficient flow throughout the system where demand points upstream do not rob flow from downstream demand points, it should not matter where heat exchangers and other types of devices are tied into the system.

4) Find a local mechanical engineer to look over your piping isometrics before installing the system.  You guys have been around for a long time and probably have some customer friends in the trade.  Ask them to charge you for a few hours of review time.  The few hours of engineering review is definitely worth the investment.

Cheers,
Ashton

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2023 09:50
From: Michael Smith
Subject: glycol piping layout

Hello:

Anyone out there have a minute to take a look at the attached glycol flow plan?

I am understanding the first in last out concept but what I'm curious about is where I have the heat exchanger plumbed in relation to all of the rest of the tanks.

Will this work good enough?

Is there a more ideal way to do this?

If so what makes a different route better?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael Smith

Head Brewer 

Eel River Brewing Company

707-764-1772