Ask The Brewmasters

I was talking to a friend today about diacetyl and seltzer production. That's a topic I haven't heard folks discussing. Yeast produce valine when growing, so it seems that seltzer is not immune to D.  Has anyone out there experienced diacetyl issues related to seltzer fermentation?

Cheers,

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337
------------------------------

I don't have much in terms of answers, but the Venn diagram of interesting topics and seltzers doesn't have much overlap - so here's some food for thought! Two different breweries where I've worked had very different approaches:

-Ferment ~20P seltzer base with a wine yeast at 68F -> achieve ~99-100% RDF over 3ish weeks -> just to be safe, wait to cool FV until liquid passes a forced diacetyl test -> centrifuge base -> circulate through activated carbon. I don't remember how often the seltzer base failed its diacetyl tests.

-Ferment ~30P seltzer base with a wine yeast around 85F -> achieve ~88% RDF in a week -> crash FV as soon as apparent extract stops decreasing or scheduling dictates (whichever comes first) -> send liquid through an RO-based dealcoholizer and collect the byproduct without a worry in the world.

Some questions those processes bring up:

-Does carbon filtration remove diacetyl?

-Is dilution of a strong base to make various products usually sufficient to knock normal levels of uncontrolled diacetyl below sensory thresholds?

-Like wine, do fruity seltzers simply play nicer with diacetyl than beer and therefore not need as low of levels?

-Do nutrient additions required for seltzers impact valine production (or uptake of other amino acids that could suppress valine production) in a way that's favorable for less diacetyl production?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know a (moderate) diacetyl problem if it smacked me in the face. I'm pretty insensitive to the stuff - which is great for my general enjoyment of beer - but I rely on other people to tell me when diacetyl is present, so I'm lacking in anecdotal memory as much as I am in hard data.

------------------------------
Joe Walts
Quality Manager and R&D Brewer
Karben4 Brewing
Madison WI
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-13-2023 10:07
From: Ashton Lewis
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I was talking to a friend today about diacetyl and seltzer production. That's a topic I haven't heard folks discussing. Yeast produce valine when growing, so it seems that seltzer is not immune to D.  Has anyone out there experienced diacetyl issues related to seltzer fermentation?

Cheers,

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337
------------------------------

Joe,

Firstly the wine and diacetyl thing, a lot of that diacetyl in wines is produced by malo-lactic fermentation and not by yeast, so it isn't really relevant for seltzer.

In analyzing our seltzer ferments, as long as there is sufficient nutrient at around 200 - 300 ppm to start, a boost if needed, we haven't seen any diacetyl issues.  Analysis by GC is shockingly low over the course of the entire ferment! 

Look for wine strains that are low to moderate on their nitrogen requirements and you should be okay!

------------------------------
Stephen Gonzalez
Senior Manager of Brewing & Innovation
Stone Brewing Co
Escondido CA
(760) 715-9213
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-16-2023 13:51
From: Joe Walts
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I don't have much in terms of answers, but the Venn diagram of interesting topics and seltzers doesn't have much overlap - so here's some food for thought! Two different breweries where I've worked had very different approaches:

-Ferment ~20P seltzer base with a wine yeast at 68F -> achieve ~99-100% RDF over 3ish weeks -> just to be safe, wait to cool FV until liquid passes a forced diacetyl test -> centrifuge base -> circulate through activated carbon. I don't remember how often the seltzer base failed its diacetyl tests.

-Ferment ~30P seltzer base with a wine yeast around 85F -> achieve ~88% RDF in a week -> crash FV as soon as apparent extract stops decreasing or scheduling dictates (whichever comes first) -> send liquid through an RO-based dealcoholizer and collect the byproduct without a worry in the world.

Some questions those processes bring up:

-Does carbon filtration remove diacetyl?

-Is dilution of a strong base to make various products usually sufficient to knock normal levels of uncontrolled diacetyl below sensory thresholds?

-Like wine, do fruity seltzers simply play nicer with diacetyl than beer and therefore not need as low of levels?

-Do nutrient additions required for seltzers impact valine production (or uptake of other amino acids that could suppress valine production) in a way that's favorable for less diacetyl production?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know a (moderate) diacetyl problem if it smacked me in the face. I'm pretty insensitive to the stuff - which is great for my general enjoyment of beer - but I rely on other people to tell me when diacetyl is present, so I'm lacking in anecdotal memory as much as I am in hard data.

------------------------------
Joe Walts
Quality Manager and R&D Brewer
Karben4 Brewing
Madison WI

Original Message:
Sent: 01-13-2023 10:07
From: Ashton Lewis
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I was talking to a friend today about diacetyl and seltzer production. That's a topic I haven't heard folks discussing. Yeast produce valine when growing, so it seems that seltzer is not immune to D.  Has anyone out there experienced diacetyl issues related to seltzer fermentation?

Cheers,

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337
------------------------------

Hi Stephen,

My point about diacetyl in wine wasn't about how it's produced, but about how wine tends to contain higher levels than beer without being offensive. Regardless, your GC results are intriguing! Is your 200-300 ppm value for FAN or something else?

------------------------------
Joe Walts
Quality Manager and R&D Brewer
Karben4 Brewing
Madison WI
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2023 11:28
From: Stephen Gonzalez
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

Joe,

Firstly the wine and diacetyl thing, a lot of that diacetyl in wines is produced by malo-lactic fermentation and not by yeast, so it isn't really relevant for seltzer.

In analyzing our seltzer ferments, as long as there is sufficient nutrient at around 200 - 300 ppm to start, a boost if needed, we haven't seen any diacetyl issues.  Analysis by GC is shockingly low over the course of the entire ferment!

Look for wine strains that are low to moderate on their nitrogen requirements and you should be okay!

------------------------------
Stephen Gonzalez
Senior Manager of Brewing & Innovation
Stone Brewing Co
Escondido CA
(760) 715-9213

Original Message:
Sent: 01-16-2023 13:51
From: Joe Walts
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I don't have much in terms of answers, but the Venn diagram of interesting topics and seltzers doesn't have much overlap - so here's some food for thought! Two different breweries where I've worked had very different approaches:

-Ferment ~20P seltzer base with a wine yeast at 68F -> achieve ~99-100% RDF over 3ish weeks -> just to be safe, wait to cool FV until liquid passes a forced diacetyl test -> centrifuge base -> circulate through activated carbon. I don't remember how often the seltzer base failed its diacetyl tests.

-Ferment ~30P seltzer base with a wine yeast around 85F -> achieve ~88% RDF in a week -> crash FV as soon as apparent extract stops decreasing or scheduling dictates (whichever comes first) -> send liquid through an RO-based dealcoholizer and collect the byproduct without a worry in the world.

Some questions those processes bring up:

-Does carbon filtration remove diacetyl?

-Is dilution of a strong base to make various products usually sufficient to knock normal levels of uncontrolled diacetyl below sensory thresholds?

-Like wine, do fruity seltzers simply play nicer with diacetyl than beer and therefore not need as low of levels?

-Do nutrient additions required for seltzers impact valine production (or uptake of other amino acids that could suppress valine production) in a way that's favorable for less diacetyl production?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know a (moderate) diacetyl problem if it smacked me in the face. I'm pretty insensitive to the stuff - which is great for my general enjoyment of beer - but I rely on other people to tell me when diacetyl is present, so I'm lacking in anecdotal memory as much as I am in hard data.

------------------------------
Joe Walts
Quality Manager and R&D Brewer
Karben4 Brewing
Madison WI

Original Message:
Sent: 01-13-2023 10:07
From: Ashton Lewis
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I was talking to a friend today about diacetyl and seltzer production. That's a topic I haven't heard folks discussing. Yeast produce valine when growing, so it seems that seltzer is not immune to D.  Has anyone out there experienced diacetyl issues related to seltzer fermentation?

Cheers,

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/17/2023 10:00:00 PM
From: Joe Walts
Subject: RE: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

Hi Stephen,

My point about diacetyl in wine wasn't about how it's produced, but about how wine tends to contain higher levels than beer without being offensive. Regardless, your GC results are intriguing! Is your 200-300 ppm value for FAN or something else?

------------------------------
Joe Walts
Quality Manager and R&D Brewer
Karben4 Brewing
Madison WI
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2023 11:28
From: Stephen Gonzalez
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

Joe,

Firstly the wine and diacetyl thing, a lot of that diacetyl in wines is produced by malo-lactic fermentation and not by yeast, so it isn't really relevant for seltzer.

In analyzing our seltzer ferments, as long as there is sufficient nutrient at around 200 - 300 ppm to start, a boost if needed, we haven't seen any diacetyl issues.  Analysis by GC is shockingly low over the course of the entire ferment!

Look for wine strains that are low to moderate on their nitrogen requirements and you should be okay!

------------------------------
Stephen Gonzalez
Senior Manager of Brewing & Innovation
Stone Brewing Co
Escondido CA
(760) 715-9213

Original Message:
Sent: 01-16-2023 13:51
From: Joe Walts
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I don't have much in terms of answers, but the Venn diagram of interesting topics and seltzers doesn't have much overlap - so here's some food for thought! Two different breweries where I've worked had very different approaches:

-Ferment ~20P seltzer base with a wine yeast at 68F -> achieve ~99-100% RDF over 3ish weeks -> just to be safe, wait to cool FV until liquid passes a forced diacetyl test -> centrifuge base -> circulate through activated carbon. I don't remember how often the seltzer base failed its diacetyl tests.

-Ferment ~30P seltzer base with a wine yeast around 85F -> achieve ~88% RDF in a week -> crash FV as soon as apparent extract stops decreasing or scheduling dictates (whichever comes first) -> send liquid through an RO-based dealcoholizer and collect the byproduct without a worry in the world.

Some questions those processes bring up:

-Does carbon filtration remove diacetyl?

-Is dilution of a strong base to make various products usually sufficient to knock normal levels of uncontrolled diacetyl below sensory thresholds?

-Like wine, do fruity seltzers simply play nicer with diacetyl than beer and therefore not need as low of levels?

-Do nutrient additions required for seltzers impact valine production (or uptake of other amino acids that could suppress valine production) in a way that's favorable for less diacetyl production?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know a (moderate) diacetyl problem if it smacked me in the face. I'm pretty insensitive to the stuff - which is great for my general enjoyment of beer - but I rely on other people to tell me when diacetyl is present, so I'm lacking in anecdotal memory as much as I am in hard data.

------------------------------
Joe Walts
Quality Manager and R&D Brewer
Karben4 Brewing
Madison WI

Original Message:
Sent: 01-13-2023 10:07
From: Ashton Lewis
Subject: Diacetyl and Seltzer Fermentations

I was talking to a friend today about diacetyl and seltzer production. That's a topic I haven't heard folks discussing. Yeast produce valine when growing, so it seems that seltzer is not immune to D.  Has anyone out there experienced diacetyl issues related to seltzer fermentation?

Cheers,

------------------------------
Ashton Lewis
Manager of Training and Technical Support
BSG Craftbrewing
MBAA District Great Plains, Technical Chair
Springfield, Missouri
(417) 830-2337
------------------------------