Ask The Brewmasters

Hello Community,

I would love to hear from anyone running a counter pressure canning line.  Lately we have been seeing a noticeable difference in carbonation levels between the bright tank and the can, most significantly with cider, but also observed in beer.  Bright tank CO2 levels are typically 2.5-2.7 vol, but then when we pierce the cans, we see a drop of 0.1-0.3 vol CO2.  

I'm wondering if I need to worry about leaks in the lines, or adjusting filler pressure settings, or if anyone else has dealt with this issue and had successful trouble shooting?  This has not always been the case, previously we saw no more than a 0.1 vol drop with can levels having a general variation of less than +/- 0.05 vol.

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Kelly White
Country Boy Brewing
Georgetown KY
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Some things to watch out for.

1) temperature; I have walked into a brewery with years of issues; CO2 pick up during wintertime and losses during summertime; and was able to identify that this was clearly related to temperature variables of beer in BBT's.

2) filler counter pressure; I have walked into a brewery with two identical fillers operating off the same BBT; with one filler consistently showing gains in package CO2 and it's partner consistently losing CO2; counter pressures were locked down on each filler and not being adjusted; solution was simply to get the pressure right on both fillers; and watch carefully to adjust pressure for seasonal variations.

3) issues with actual pressure versus accuracy of pressure readings. It can definitely be the case that calibration is a contributing issue.

4) beer quality; consistency of clarity is related to lack of quiet filling and thus to excess fobbing issues and CO2 losses.

5) Also, beers of different qualities (BU, RDF, malt types, etc.) foam differently and CO2 changes through filling can be noticeably different.

Cheers

Keith

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Keith Armstrong
Retired
Edmonton AB
(780) 504-4245
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Keith,

Thank you for the suggestions, it does seem to be temperature and beer type related.  While the BBTs are all set to 33-34F, the cans are reading 44-46F when pierced within 5-10 minutes of being pulled off the line (delay due to shaking for headspace equilibration).  We do not adjust the filler pressure across recipes, so that seems like the first thing to explore with the canning line operator.

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Kelly White
Country Boy Brewing
Georgetown KY
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2024 15:20
From: Keith Armstrong
Subject: Carbonation Losses on Canning Line

Some things to watch out for.

1) temperature; I have walked into a brewery with years of issues; CO2 pick up during wintertime and losses during summertime; and was able to identify that this was clearly related to temperature variables of beer in BBT's.

2) filler counter pressure; I have walked into a brewery with two identical fillers operating off the same BBT; with one filler consistently showing gains in package CO2 and it's partner consistently losing CO2; counter pressures were locked down on each filler and not being adjusted; solution was simply to get the pressure right on both fillers; and watch carefully to adjust pressure for seasonal variations.

3) issues with actual pressure versus accuracy of pressure readings. It can definitely be the case that calibration is a contributing issue.

4) beer quality; consistency of clarity is related to lack of quiet filling and thus to excess fobbing issues and CO2 losses.

5) Also, beers of different qualities (BU, RDF, malt types, etc.) foam differently and CO2 changes through filling can be noticeably different.

Cheers

Keith

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Keith Armstrong
Retired
Edmonton AB
(780) 504-4245
------------------------------

Kelly,

One of the first things I would suggest checking is the calibration of your thermometer and pressure gauge on the piercing device. Both of these are subject to calibration drift over time. Please visit our website www.zahmnagel.com. under the support tab you will find the link to our YouTube channel. there you will find the video instructions regarding these calibrations. I would also advise preforming these calibrations on all of the gauges and thermometers from your tank to the canning line. 

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David Koch
Zahm & Nagel Co Inc
Holland NY
(716) 537-2110
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David,

Thank you for the response, but I am using a Gehaltemeter with the piercer, which I pressure calibrate regularly.  It is always a good idea to check other probes and gauges for accuracy though.

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Kelly White
Country Boy Brewing
Georgetown KY
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2024 10:51
From: David Koch
Subject: Carbonation Losses on Canning Line

Kelly,

One of the first things I would suggest checking is the calibration of your thermometer and pressure gauge on the piercing device. Both of these are subject to calibration drift over time. Please visit our website www.zahmnagel.com. under the support tab you will find the link to our YouTube channel. there you will find the video instructions regarding these calibrations. I would also advise preforming these calibrations on all of the gauges and thermometers from your tank to the canning line. 

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David Koch
Zahm & Nagel Co Inc
Holland NY
(716) 537-2110
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Hi Kelly. 

you didn't mention anything about it, did you do any maintenance on the filling line just before you saw the CO2 drop, we always hope that everything works better after maintenance, but sometimes it's the other way around and you have to do a detailed inspection. As Keith mentioned, it would be great if you can also check the temperature measured with the Gehaltemeter, just to check if there is any deviation between displayed and actual T (just use an external thermometer). Checking the counter pressure in the line and setting it to the correct value is very important. 

I hope you can solve your issue soon 

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Daniela El Alam
Venlo
+31616031567
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