Ask The Brewmasters

^{Hey all,} 
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation. 
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?) 


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

You may want to consider a yeast like "Philly Sour". It produces lactic acid in addition to the usual fermentation products. The sourness depends on the glucose content of the wort. It is highly flocculant, so you may have to rouse it several times. One approach tohitting the acidity and flavor targets would be make a batch the sour yeast and another with a non-sour yeast and blend.
If sour yeast works, it avoids the need to deal with bacteria.

------------------------------
Roger Barth
Author (with M Farber) of Mastering Brewing Science ISBN 9781119456056
Retired
West Chester PA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

Most brewers will brew a Berliner Weisse via the "kettle sour" method which you do in your boil kettle and lets you control the amount of acidity and then sterilize the wort to eliminate the risk of infection during the remaining fermentation and packaging.  You can probably find lots on kettle souring online, but here's a quick overview of how we do it:

1. Bring wort to a boil or at least to 180F to sterilize for 10 minutes.
2. Do not put in hops yet as that will inhibit lacto
3. Chill wort through your heat exchanger down to 90-95F (depending on lacto strain) - We occasionally whirlpool during this process to make sure wort temp is uniform (i.e. no stratification)
4. Pitch lacto or other culture - OYL 605 is a popular one from Omega - If you tell them the size of the batch, they'll send you the right amount of pitchable culture
5. If you have a way to do it, purge the head space in the boil kettle with CO2
6. Let the lacto do it's thing!  Depending on how sour you want the wort, it's going to be at least 12 hours so most brewers let it ferment overnight and check back in the morning.  If you want to limit the acidity, check occasionally with pH meter (Titratable Acidity is better if you can test for that) and by taste every few hours.
7. Once it gets to the acidity you want, bring it back to a boil as quickly as possible to stop the fermentation and kill the lacto.
8. After that, it's a regular brewing process where you can add hops or other additions and then pitch with regular yeast into your fermenter.

Hope that helps!  

-Derek Edinger
Brewery Ardennes

------------------------------
Derek Edinger
Head of Brewing Operations & Co-founder
Ardennes Brewing LLC
Geneva NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

We follow this same procedure, with the addition of bubbling CO2 through the bottom port of the kettle, while the souring goes on. It keeps a CO2 environment and mixes the wort up a bit.

------------------------------
Alexander Kopf
Brewer
Northwoods Brewing Company
alex@northwoodsbrewingcompany.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2022 11:48
From: Derek Edinger
Subject: Berliner weisse

Most brewers will brew a Berliner Weisse via the "kettle sour" method which you do in your boil kettle and lets you control the amount of acidity and then sterilize the wort to eliminate the risk of infection during the remaining fermentation and packaging.  You can probably find lots on kettle souring online, but here's a quick overview of how we do it:

1. Bring wort to a boil or at least to 180F to sterilize for 10 minutes.
2. Do not put in hops yet as that will inhibit lacto
3. Chill wort through your heat exchanger down to 90-95F (depending on lacto strain) - We occasionally whirlpool during this process to make sure wort temp is uniform (i.e. no stratification)
4. Pitch lacto or other culture - OYL 605 is a popular one from Omega - If you tell them the size of the batch, they'll send you the right amount of pitchable culture
5. If you have a way to do it, purge the head space in the boil kettle with CO2
6. Let the lacto do it's thing!  Depending on how sour you want the wort, it's going to be at least 12 hours so most brewers let it ferment overnight and check back in the morning.  If you want to limit the acidity, check occasionally with pH meter (Titratable Acidity is better if you can test for that) and by taste every few hours.
7. Once it gets to the acidity you want, bring it back to a boil as quickly as possible to stop the fermentation and kill the lacto.
8. After that, it's a regular brewing process where you can add hops or other additions and then pitch with regular yeast into your fermenter.

Hope that helps!

-Derek Edinger
Brewery Ardennes

------------------------------
Derek Edinger
Head of Brewing Operations & Co-founder
Ardennes Brewing LLC
Geneva NY

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

I tried a Philly sour but found the acid production a little underwhelming, I think you'd have to add sugar to get a low enough pH for Berliner.  There is a new genetically altered sach that produces a ton of lactic but I can't remember who makes it.  I heard about it in an MBAA podcast so you aught to be able to find it there.

------------------------------
Jason Hartley
Brewer
Nice Pipes
New Denver BC
(250) 505-6262
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11/14/2022 4:17:00 PM
From: Jason Hartley
Subject: RE: Berliner weisse

I tried a Philly sour but found the acid production a little underwhelming, I think you'd have to add sugar to get a low enough pH for Berliner.  There is a new genetically altered sach that produces a ton of lactic but I can't remember who makes it.  I heard about it in an MBAA podcast so you aught to be able to find it there.

------------------------------
Jason Hartley
Brewer
Nice Pipes
New Denver BC
(250) 505-6262
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

Do you have a means to play with mash temp? If so, go wild! I once did a Berliner by doing a thick step mash including Saccharification, followed by mash off at 80c to control the bugs, then a cold infusion to bring down to lacto range, 40-45c. I inoculated with a bag of crushed pilsner malt, it was going nuts the next day, waited for desired titratable acidity (36 hours?) mash off/boil to kill bugs, lauter, then proceed as usual with boil and sacc. yeast. The beer came out great, complex and quaffable. If you are packaging in cans, just remember to be mindful of can liner compatibility with low pH, have fun!

------------------------------
Jeff Biegert
Research and Development
Lean Six Sigma Black Belt
New Belgium Brewing Co
Fort Collins CO
(970) 221-0524
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

As Roger stated, use the Sourvisiae.  It doesn't tie up your brewhouse for 24+ hours and it easily manipulated.  We have found that co-pitching with chico yeast at a 2:1 ratio, gives a nice clean sour that finishes between 3.2-3.4pH.  Pitching straight Sourvisiae often lends the pH being far too low.

------------------------------
Ivan Dedek
Brewmaster/Food Scientist
Meier's Creek Brewing
Cazenovia NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------

If you would like to explore traditional Berliner Weisse, which is relatively different than most responses here, here are some resources for you until Benedikt Koch can finish his book: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Berliner_Weissbier

------------------------------
Dan Pixley
Milk The Funk Wiki Editor
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2022 16:28
From: Christopher Warman
Subject: Berliner weisse

^{Hey all,}
Looking to brew a Berliner weisse for the first time. i am hoping to find a few pointers and feedback from those that have, on what worked well and what didn't concerning bacteria choice and process during fermentation.
Id love to pitch with a blend of Sac, lacto and neural ale yeast without an overly acidic character.
I also have concerns about bacteria choices to avoid further growth of said bacteria after packaging. (is a preservative ie sodium benz. necessary or effective to achieve that?)


------------------------------
Christopher Warman
Brewer
Warped Wing Brewing Co
Miamisburg OH
------------------------------