Ask The Brewmasters

We recently added a centrifuge to our brewery, and it has been a joy to work with compared to the 40+ year old DE filter that it has mostly replaced. However, we are getting a bit of haze in our dry hopped beers that the centrifuge isn't removing. 

Running these beers through our DE filter does a great job of removing this haze, but we would like to move away from using it if possible. 

Has anyone had success with alternate methods of polishing beer after centrifuging, or should we expect to continue using our DE filter?

Thanks

We recently added a centrifuge to our brewery, and it has been a joy to work with compared to the 40+ year old DE filter that it has mostly replaced. However, we are getting a bit of haze in our dry hopped beers that the centrifuge isn't removing. 

Running these beers through our DE filter does a great job of removing this haze, but we would like to move away from using it if possible. 

Has anyone had success with alternate methods of polishing beer after centrifuging, or should we expect to continue using our DE filter?

Thanks

I would focus on your process, pre-centrifuge vs. post-centrifuge.  The key is to increase the molecular weight of the particle size so that gravity can do the work.  The centrifuge is simply increasing the gravitational forces acting on the particles.  Van der Waals and other attractive forces interacting within the beer are trying to keep the small hazing forming in suspension and are working against these gravitational forces.  The smaller the particle sizes, the more surface area there is and more difficult for gravity to do its thing. pH also has some impact as well, but within the ranges of most typical beers, it is mostly academic.

From a practical side, the easiest thing to do would be to crash cool the beer prior to filtration and let it rest for 24-48 hrs (for natural gravity to do some work).  This will decrease the solubility of the particles and cause them to precipitate as they become larger and thus make it easier for the centrifuge to do it's thing.  This may be just enough to get the additional clarity you desire.  You can further assist this process by adding some type of aid such as silica hydrogels or xeorgels which will binds to the proteins enabling them to be more easily removed by the centrifuge.  An added benefit of this additional process is to reduce chill-haze forming proteins.  There are many other similar type products on the market.  However, It may be overkill, unless you really want some bright beer and are concerned about chill haze in the glass.   Hope this helps.  Cheers!

I agree that a look at the process from start to finish would also help with reduction in haze.  Specifically, from whirlpool to package release tank.  Don't forget that there are possibilities to add carrageenan, isinglass, and enzymes for further control.  What you choose is certainly based upon process, preference, and cost.

As for dry hopping, you will pick up flavor and aroma compounds for about 12 hours of contact time.  After this length of time, your beer will continue to absorb polyphenols only. So, in the longer term using a method with a forced flow over the hops, or other materials, could help to reduce this.

Finally, I hear many brewers adding process aids, such as silica,  PVPP, or other to the bright beer tank and letting it settle for a period of time before adjusting carbonation and then packaging.  This turns a bright beer tank into a storage tank.  If production is not very intense, this may not cause much problem for production scheduling. However, under current TTB regulation, silica products and PVPP must be removed by filtration prior to packaging.  A sheet filter of trap filter could work in this application.  There is no right and wrong on how to handle this--My wife would be surprised to hear me say that!-- and there are several options.

The chill haze is mostly proteins that fuses together at certain temperatures, the colder it gets the more you will see.

One solution to remove chill haze is to lower the beer temperature prior to filtration almost to freezing, the proteins will the be large enough to be removed by a normal DE filter and will not show up until temperature get lower than the one applied.

Any treatment for haze normally best performed on filtered beer, as this will optimize the effect of PVPP or silica gel.

Prefiltration treatment is the more common way unless one have a designated PVPP system, this is slightly less efficient (higher dosage),

but will remove the polyphenols (PVPP), or certain proteins (silica gel).

The prefiltration removal is best performed in a DE filter, which will have the cake capacity to handle the extra solids load, unfortunately most smaller breweries works with wine filters in a process that is not optimized for beer not in design and not in the process itself.

Use of straight sheet filter or membranes for this process is expensive with short runs before clogging up.

This is a good discussion. The Forum and Mash Digest are most useful.

This may add to the looking at all points of the process. Please remember that the beer needs to get to the lowest temperature possible and the temperature should not cycle up and down once your have reached that stabilization temperature in the fermenter/stabilization tank. This applies to whatever separation technique that you are using, may it be centrifuge, and/or filter. Often breweries economize by not installing a chiller before the separator and may have long runs and high ambient temperatures in the area and through the pump(s) too.  It is a compromise, at best,  to make sure that you have the beer lines well insulated, especially if you have a pump in the circuit and high room temperatures. You should remember, It is also important to remember that the beer should not be held in the packaging tank colder than it experienced through the separator. because you will get more haze developing.

I'd like to add another dimension to this topic. We are running a centrifuge with no post filtration(by design) although we do "rework" the beer if the turbidity levels go out of our spec during the run. Due to our chilling protocol, we have little to no beer needing to be sent back to the FV to be reworked. We chill to 32'F in the FVs for a minimum of 48hrs(usually longer) and have been using Clarex(Mfgd by DSM) in all brews. We also utilize a hop gun(BrauKon) on our dry hopped beers. Runs with our dry hops are 2.5-4 hrs long as we have found no noticeable hop character pick up with extended runs. With all that said, we are experiencing what we believe to be a protein/polyphenol sediment in our bottles forming several days to a couple weeks in our dry hopped beers. Again, visual inspection of the beers at bottling and days afterwards show a very clear beer with absolutely no signs of particulate. O2 levels in the brite tank are almost always below 50ppb(usually under 25ppb) and less than 100ppb(usually under 50ppb)in the bottle. We refer to the sediment as "sea monkeys and/or snowflakes" and it seems to be proportional to the amount of dry hops per run. I can't stress enough that the beer is VERY clear in the bottle both at room temp and chilled despite having this sediment present. If roused, the sediment goes into suspension, but does NOT disperse into a haze. It then gives the appearance of a snow globe....small flakes in a very CLEAR beer. We have already eliminated any type of infection through lab analysis. Through sensory analysis we have determined the beer to be free of any off flavors or aromas. Is anyone else experiencing this with the use of a centrifuge and/or hop gun? All opinions are welcome.

Jim

We have exactly the same problem with one of our dry hopped beers. We are at a loss at to why we are getting the snow globe effect. On the advice of another brewery, we just purchased Clarex. They developed snow globe problems and claimed that Clarex helped. I'm dismayed that you are using Clarex and are getting snow. Our lab guy identified the snow as oxilate crystals. We have increase calcium in the kettle to the maximum recommended level with no appreciable decrease in the snow. This beer has a lot of Munich malt and we have even switch suppliers with no improvement. Another dry hopped beer has small particulate haze that is not chill haze. We have three other dry hopped beers that do not develop snow. One of our guys is convinced the snow is from Citra hops as the two problematic beer both are dry hopped with Citra. I'm not convinced. The first beer above was developing snow before we installed our centrifuge. The second problematic one has shown up since we installed the centrifuge. The only difference in our procedures is that we dry hop through a top dry hop port and not with the "gun". Hopefully, someone will have a suggestion.

On a different subject; where do you get your Clarex? We purchased it from one of our malt suppliers and we were disappointed that the one we got was manufactured a year ago and has only 6 months left to its best before date. I've emailed DSM twice with no response.

We too have had/have very much the same problems.  We too run a Braukon HopGun and a HB1 Westfalia Centrifuge.  We have been using Spindasol from AEB, after dry hopping and before centrifuging and greatly reduced the amount of sediment in the bottom but not quite to the level we like.  We have had the haze analyzed and it is most certainly a result of the increased polyphenol levels from dry hopping.  The problem of temperature going to the centrifuge is that jacketed tanks are not really capable of bringing the temperature much below 32 F.  The reason for this is the density shift as well as the diminishing efficiency of 26 F glycol against 32-33 F beer in an unmoving tank (damn thermodynamics).  I'd be interested if anyone has employed the use of a bright beer chiller pre-centrifuge and got good results.  

Jim

We have exactly the same problem with one of our dry hopped beers. We are at a loss at to why we are getting the snow globe effect. On the advice of another brewery, we just purchased Clarex. They developed snow globe problems and claimed that Clarex helped. I'm dismayed that you are using Clarex and are getting snow. Our lab guy identified the snow as oxilate crystals. We have increase calcium in the kettle to the maximum recommended level with no appreciable decrease in the snow. This beer has a lot of Munich malt and we have even switch suppliers with no improvement. Another dry hopped beer has small particulate haze that is not chill haze. We have three other dry hopped beers that do not develop snow. One of our guys is convinced the snow is from Citra hops as the two problematic beer both are dry hopped with Citra. I'm not convinced. The first beer above was developing snow before we installed our centrifuge. The second problematic one has shown up since we installed the centrifuge. The only difference in our procedures is that we dry hop through a top dry hop port and not with the "gun". Hopefully, someone will have a suggestion.

On a different subject; where do you get your Clarex? We purchased it from one of our malt suppliers and we were disappointed that the one we got was manufactured a year ago and has only 6 months left to its best before date. I've emailed DSM twice with no response.

I am curious if you are seeing the "snow" in the beer using the gun for dry-hopping and not in the beer using the dry port?  I assume that the gun is using carbon dioxide to push the hops into the fermenter?  Just wondering if the inorganic participate that you are seeing could be a result of the procedure rather than the ingredients.  Are you seeing a noticeable difference in beer pH between the beer with snow vs. the beers without?

I'd like to add another dimension to this topic. We are running a centrifuge with no post filtration(by design) although we do "rework" the beer if the turbidity levels go out of our spec during the run. Due to our chilling protocol, we have little to no beer needing to be sent back to the FV to be reworked. We chill to 32'F in the FVs for a minimum of 48hrs(usually longer) and have been using Clarex(Mfgd by DSM) in all brews. We also utilize a hop gun(BrauKon) on our dry hopped beers. Runs with our dry hops are 2.5-4 hrs long as we have found no noticeable hop character pick up with extended runs. With all that said, we are experiencing what we believe to be a protein/polyphenol sediment in our bottles forming several days to a couple weeks in our dry hopped beers. Again, visual inspection of the beers at bottling and days afterwards show a very clear beer with absolutely no signs of particulate. O2 levels in the brite tank are almost always below 50ppb(usually under 25ppb) and less than 100ppb(usually under 50ppb)in the bottle. We refer to the sediment as "sea monkeys and/or snowflakes" and it seems to be proportional to the amount of dry hops per run. I can't stress enough that the beer is VERY clear in the bottle both at room temp and chilled despite having this sediment present. If roused, the sediment goes into suspension, but does NOT disperse into a haze. It then gives the appearance of a snow globe....small flakes in a very CLEAR beer. We have already eliminated any type of infection through lab analysis. Through sensory analysis we have determined the beer to be free of any off flavors or aromas. Is anyone else experiencing this with the use of a centrifuge and/or hop gun? All opinions are welcome.

32 degrees is much to warm for clarification and that will certainly lead to oxalate hazes.  You need to go as low as your beer density allows you to go before it freezes, then clarify that using centrifuge of filter.  I have seen 28 degrees as target.

32 degrees is much to warm for clarification and that will certainly lead to oxalate hazes.  You need to go as low as your beer density allows you to go before it freezes, then clarify that using centrifuge of filter.  I have seen 28 degrees as target.

We recently added a centrifuge to our brewery, and it has been a joy to work with compared to the 40+ year old DE filter that it has mostly replaced. However, we are getting a bit of haze in our dry hopped beers that the centrifuge isn't removing. 

Running these beers through our DE filter does a great job of removing this haze, but we would like to move away from using it if possible. 

Has anyone had success with alternate methods of polishing beer after centrifuging, or should we expect to continue using our DE filter?

Thanks

We recently added a centrifuge to our brewery, and it has been a joy to work with compared to the 40+ year old DE filter that it has mostly replaced. However, we are getting a bit of haze in our dry hopped beers that the centrifuge isn't removing. 

Running these beers through our DE filter does a great job of removing this haze, but we would like to move away from using it if possible. 

Has anyone had success with alternate methods of polishing beer after centrifuging, or should we expect to continue using our DE filter?

Thanks