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Nitrogen Generator ROI

  • 1.  Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-24-2020 13:55
    We are exploring replacing some of our CO2 usage with a nitrogen generator.  People that have done this
    • What processes did you use CO2 for that got replaced with nitrogen? 
    • What percentage reduction in CO2 usage (lbs/bbl) did you see?
    • Were there any unforeseen operating costs or challenges with implementing the N2 generator?


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    Tyson Read
    Head Brewer
    Iron Horse Brewery
    Ellensburg WA
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  • 2.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-25-2020 11:47
    I'm interested too and have been investigating this.  The big savings would be pushing out of fermenters and purging brite tanks.  From those I heard have tried this, it's hard for a small, reasonably priced N2 generator to keep up with the volume demand.  Also, some concern of N2 too easily mixing with ambient air (vs. CO2 which is heavier) so hard to get a good purge.  Would love to hear more about this from others.

    Derek Edinger
    Ardennes Brewing
    Geneva, NY

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    Derek Edinger
    Head of Brewing Operations & Co-founder
    Ardennes Brewing LLC
    Geneva NY
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  • 3.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-25-2020 16:14
    Edited by Mike Wayne 11-26-2020 11:22

    Ooh. I gots this!!

    I was familiar with these from my lab days and I had no idea there was 5 nine grade industrial generators. Because I'm on an island in the Atlantic CO2 is VERY expensive. A reclamation unit would be about a 10 year break-even so we didn't want to go that route, but the generator looked to be a 18 month break-even.

    We're using Atlas Copco and just happened to order a compressor too large for the brewery itself, but is the right size for the generator. (You need a LOT of scfm!)

    I'm almost 6 nine grade N2 (>99.9996%) and the largest impurity is argon (about which I care very little). 

    This has displaced over 90% of my CO2 consumption and I only use CO2 to carbonate. By switching to a FizzWizz I've reduced my consumption to about nothing. 

    N2 is used for pneumatic conveyance and head pressure for packaging; basically any time I need liquid to move I'm using N2.

    My biggest shafting was from inline dosing with N2 and the entrained N2 acts as a cockblocker to carbonation. The FizzWizz takes care of this on a venting cycle and I've switched to CO2 inline dosing.

    There's a million questions about this and I would encourage a video chat so you can see what we're doing here. I'm a HUGE fan of my N2!

    Ask questions here so everyone gets the benefit and you can email me for details.  

    mike@boomstickbrewing.ca



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    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
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  • 4.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-26-2020 13:30
    Lurker here, but what is the SCFM referring to? Great discussion here on inert gasses and their different advantages and disadvantages in the brewery!

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    Zach Grewell
    West Chester PA
    (610) 304-2607
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  • 5.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-26-2020 16:29
    SCFM is standard cubic feet per minute. It's the base unit for all pneumatics. When sizing a compressor you care very little about pressure. You care a LOT about SCFM.

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    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
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  • 6.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-27-2020 17:43
    1 SCFM = 1 cubic foot per minute at 68 F (20 C) and 1 atmosphere (14.7 psia). For nitrogen this comes to 0.549 grams per second. 1 cubic foot = 7.5 US gal. = 28.3 liters.

    ------------------------------
    Roger Barth
    Author (with M Farber) of Mastering Brewing Science ISBN 9781119456056
    West Chester University
    West Chester PA
    (610) 436-3210
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-26-2020 11:37
    Purge your bright tanks from the bottom, using CO2 and a flow regulator. Start slowly, increasing flow rate as tank fills. You may find that you can get a ~90% fill with CO2 and then press out the rest of the air as you fill the tank. Timing is important because the CO2 and air will mix over time.

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    David Kapral
    Brewing Operations Consultant
    Brewing Consulting Services
    Boise ID
    (208) 938-2064
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  • 8.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-27-2020 11:05
    Edited by Mike Wayne 12-01-2020 11:42

    Correct. I should add I use CO2 for purging BTs after PAA sani.

    I use Audrey Skinner's recommendation of 5psi for a hour/10bbls; 90 minutes for my 15bbl BT and 3 hours for my 30bbl BT. Slower is better - you don't want to entrain oxygen. 



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    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
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  • 9.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 03-26-2021 10:41
    Mike,

    Just curious, what is the specific reason you are purging the BT with CO2 and not N2? 

    Cheers,

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    Scott Roche
    Head Brewer
    Port Orleans Brewing Company
    New Orleans LA
    (985) 630-9378
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  • 10.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 03-26-2021 12:49

    Atomic weight is my reason. Nitrogen is 28 and oxygen is 32 meaning the gentlest flow would still keep mixed oxygen throughout the brite and could take days to purge. I go 5psi for 1 hour/10bbls (3 hours to purge a 30bbl). I have full confidence in product integrity at 6 months. 

    I did try doing keg purging with N2 only and that was fine during busy summer, but once sales slowed down, I was noticing kegs oxidized within 60 days. I've since switched back to CO2 purge on kegs and am beyond 5 month keg life right now.

    I hope this answers your question.  



    ------------------------------
    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
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  • 11.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-30-2020 03:40
    Edited by Jaime Jurado 12-01-2020 22:00
    For what it's worth, I have looked at this twice in larger, regional breweries. My problem was the purity is at most 99.7% purity, and the balance is air (certainly not argon!). So you introduce a lot of oxygen into the tank. the difference between 100% Nitrogen and 99.7% nitrogen is 300 ppm... so 21% of that is Oxygen: 63 ppm of O2.The slower the output rate of a pressure-swing adsorption or hollow fiber design, the greater the purity but I doubt if you will get anything above 99.7% pure nitrogen if you want to purge a tank in a reasonable time instead of in weeks. See: https://lsn2.com/hosted/images/uploads/digital_asset/file/239059/GN2_Awareness_Guide_-_general-_3.0_LSN2.pdf and we tested the Liberty unit for several weeks on a 15-bbl tank and lateron a 200-bbl tank. You also need a DO meter that can work in gas-phase, and then you simply need  to get a 0.00 ppb reading  and you know you have pushed out the oxygen adequately...we used a Hamilton Beverley handhand unit, but because we purged with  99.7% nitrogen, our assymptote was mostly 25-45 ppb. Had we used 100% pure N2, we would have probably found plots like SABMiller shared in https://craft-sensors.s3.amazonaws.com/695171_00_SAB_Miller_LR_EN.pdf?mtime=20180723052124&focal=none (Figure 1 was for 300-bbl tanks...I think they were 300's).One can also use this Fyrite unit: https://www.apexinst.com/product/fyrite-analyzer-duplex-kit  Note that for a keg being dispensed, it's perfectly fine if  your small N2 generator is  blending in nitrogen that has 0.3% air, and which the CO2 that it is blended with will reduce the overal total O2 in the dispense gas...and that keg will dispense-through fairly quickly, compared to a large tank of beer. If any manufacturer clams their nitrogen generator can do better than 99.7%, you have to ask the to verify that on a much more sensitive/costly analyzer than any optical analyzers I  cite for gas-phase testing. The nice thing is the Hamilton Beverley works robustly on beer, water, etc as readily as it does on gas purity checks. Note that slide 12 of the first link I point to discusses savings of the genetrated nitrogen versus purchased N2...it does not compare with CO2 that you plan to repalce.  We found that if yoru bulk CO2 costs $75 a ton (we generally loaded in 30,000 lbs at a time in the second brewery where I did the work), the nitrogen genator  was a little less than half the cost when used in purging (using a simple internal rate of return calculation based on a projection of how many tanks we would purge in a year)...but we did not meter the electricity consumption.  We used the generator to also make nitrogenated beers which we kegged directly from the 15-bbl tank and it was not too hard. But at the end of the day, we did not feel ok about putting beer in tanks that measured up to 45 ppb DO in gas-phase environs when comapred to tanks purged with CO2 which measured 0.00 ppb DO. I can't recall my simple calcluations to address what would happen if all the DO in the gas-space of the tank went into the beer... maybe it would have been trivial.( I guess if the solution provider gave us 99.9% pure nitrogen, we may have sprung for this as a sustainability-related investment, like the PV arrays we put on the roof and the biogas burner we had on the boiler that burned biogas from our aaerobic waste water plant).

    NOTE: ATLAS COPCO do have a system that claims '95-99.999% nirttrogen purity'...see: https://www.atlascopco.com/en-us/compressors/products/gas-generator/psa-nitrogen-generator/ngpplus-n2-generator

    NOTE ALSO taht if you have an empty tank taht has 45 ppb DO because the nitrogen used carried in some air. that doesnot mean when filled with beer, the beer would reach 45 ppb DO. Physical dispalcement will remove some of that tramp air in the gas phase as the tank fills, afterall. Then with CO2 being a little denser, there will be a layer at the top of the beer in the tank of CO2. And finally, some oxyegne taht gets absorbed in teh beer would be consume din osidation reactions within the tank. So maybe one would get no pickup in DO contet of beer transferred into the tank by a DO meter reading.
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    Jaime Jurado
    Ennoble Beverages
    Forty Fort PA
    (210) 240-4731
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  • 12.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-30-2020 08:57

    Hi Jaime, 

    You may want to check the market again. Anton Paar's CBox corroborated Atlas Copco's oxygen sensor when it said 99.9998%. This should have been 2,000ppb air (~400ppb O2) and was coming in at 5ppb on the CBox.



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    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
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  • 13.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 11-30-2020 20:39
    This is all good information, thank you all.  Here are some of the numbers that I'm working with.  There seems to be no doubt that N2 generated is cheaper than buying CO2.  What I'm not sure about is how much CO2 we could cut by using N2 to push and purge tanks and maybe kegs during washing.  Also what size generator would be needed to do that reasonably.   

    Currently we are paying $0.3076/lb for CO2 all in.  There are 8.73 SCF/lb of CO2.  This equates to $0.03519/SCF.   For the sake of large numbers, I'll use CCF, so $3.52/CCF.  Last year we used 215,917 lbs of CO2 or 18,871.15 CCF.    18,871.15 x $3.52= $66,426.45.  

    For comparison, one generator company penciled out $0.107/CCF using our current $/kwh.  This is for an 822 SCFH unit @ 99.9% purity.  Not sure if this would be adequate for reasonably pushing beer around at up to 60bbl/hr or purging tanks in a reasonable amount of time.  Or how much of the above CO2, we could reasonably displace with a system like this.  






  • 14.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 12-01-2020 12:45

    Yikes. That may be overcomplicating the math...

    Let me see if any of my brewery math helps you. 

    My math said I needed about 232kg of N2 per month as we start. This should translate to the biggest draw being ~3524 liters of N2 (290 mol; 10.4kg; ~4.2 SCFM) at 30psi within 30 minutes. This led to sizing a NGP8+ paired behind our GX4 compressor. 

    It takes 8 hours to regenerate the reservoir after fasssing a 30bbl tank and increasing that capacity means three reservoirs would fill in 24 hours and I could fass 90bbls on a GX4 and NGP8+. 

    To give you an idea of my growth expectation (pre pandemic):

    CO2 Usage by Phase

    bbl/month

    kg/month

    Phase I, August (nowish)

    224

    813.6

    Phase II, May 2020ish

    403

    1463.7

    Phase III, Dec 2020ish

    592

    2150.1

    Phase IV, Dec 2021ish

    975

    3541.2

    Phase V, Dec 2022ish

    1540

    5593.3

    Max, Dec 2023ish

    1708

    6203.5

    This has reduced the load of CO2 demand low enough where I am able to run from 100lb cylinders (CGA320 size 44). Each cylinder costs me $100 and I attribute $12.50 of CO2 cost to a 15bbl batch producing 8 1/2bbl kegs, and 100 cases of 16oz cans. The CO2 is used for purging the bright by Audrey Skinner's method of 5psi/10bbl*hr, then carbonating the 15bbl batch to 2.75vols, then CO2 purging the cans on a Cask V5. 

    Beer should produce ~10lbs/bbl and consume ~8lbs/bbl. I'm watching numbers and it looks like I'm down to .83lbs/bbl of CO2 and using N2 for everything else. 



    ------------------------------
    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 12-06-2020 10:15

    Hi Tyson,

    We have evaluated your CO2 numbers from 11/30/2020 to see what the cost would be to generate your own nitrogen in place of purchasing CO2.  The ROI time will depend on the efficiency of the nitrogen generator, how many hours you operate the nitrogen generator per year, if the consumption is steady or fluctuating, if you already have compressed air and what nitrogen purity you settle for.  For beer dispensing, small membrane systems producing 99.5 - 99.9% purity are commonly used.  For purging of kegs, bottles and cans,  99.99% purity (max 100 ppm O2) is most commonly used, requiring a Pressure Swing Adsorption type (PSA) nitrogen generator, and that is what my ROI calculation is based on.  Most breweries use 40 - 50 vol% N2 mixed with CO2 when used for purging and some can seamers use 100% N2 without any issues.
    We see that your annual consumption is 1,887,115 scf CO2/year. If we assume that you use 25% of the CO2 for carbonation, 1,415,336 scf/year is used for purging.  If we assume that you can replace 50 vol% with N2, you will have to generate 707,688 scf N2/year.  If we assume that you use the nitrogen generator on an average 5 hours, 4 days per week or 1044 hrs/year, you will need a nitrogen generator that can deliver 11.3 scfm of N2.  If you have clean, dry compressed air available equivalent to what a 15 HP compressor can deliver, the ROI time for a high efficiency PSA nitrogen generator and a 120 gallon N2 receiver will be 1.48 years based on $0.10/kwh to operate the compressor.  The cost per ccf (100 scf) of N2 will then be $0.17 compared to $3.52 for the CO2.  If you settle for less pure N2, the ROI time for a 99.9% N2 generator would be 1.34 years so not very different. The cost per ccf for this purity would drop to $0.12 since you would only need a 10 HP compressor.  If you use gas 6 hours per day, 5 days per week, the ROI time drops below one year with 99.99% purity.  I will be happy to run calculations on other scenarios as well if you like. Full disclosure, my company manufactures these systems in the US but I wanted to run the numbers for the benefit of the community so you can see what the cost is to generate nitrogen compared to purchasing CO2.  It is a lot less costly as you can see and a lot more environmentally friendly.



    ------------------------------
    Thorstein Holt
    President
    Holtec Gas Systems
    Saint Charles MO
    (314) 324-0284
    tholt@holtecllc.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 12-01-2020 22:19
    ...but isn't the C-Box only capable of measuring LIQUIDs so it cannot masure teh DO in th gas phase that is an empty tank purged with the not-100%-pure N2. You are right, maybe tegh C-Box is fiien in measuring DO without it being a liquid. And if teh Atlas Copco has a sensor, obviously they woudl knwo of a correct one to deploy. At the time of my work, which eneded about 5 years ago, no nitrogen generators were available that could exceed 99.7% purirty while maintaining a necessary generation rate that was needed for purging.

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    Jaime Jurado
    Ennoble Beverages
    Forty Fort PA
    (210) 240-4731
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  • 17.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 12-02-2020 08:50

    Jaime - I'm also not aware of a system that can purify live loads of nitrogen on demand. However, using reservoirs reduces the instantaneous demand of the generator and allows it to run any hour of the day. As long as your reservoir contains the purity and volume needed, then the only concern would be ingress upon delivery. Using PexB minimizes O2 ingress and then purging lines before introduction reduces risk further. 

    Sizing and valving of reservoirs is critical here. Placing multiple reservoirs in series may be good, but multiple reservoirs with autoswitching valves at a certain minimum pressure assures cleaner operation of one generator at low SCFM to produce all a brewery's demand.  



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    Mike Wayne
    Brewmaster
    Boomstick Brewing Co
    Corner Brook
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  • 18.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 12-01-2020 22:18
    As a manufacturer of nitrogen generators and dry air systems, it is vital that the brewer consider the present and future goals of CO2 mitigation in the brewery.  We often get calls about reducing CO2 use without any thoughts or analysis.  While I appreciate some of the remarks, please consider a hybrid solution of generator/air systems with traditional packaged gas solutions like HP or Liquid.  We tend to find them ideal for 99% of the first world applications.  Buying a single generator to provide  some calculated flow will likely be a mistake when the unit needs maintenance or a failure occurs and you don't have a local gas supplier partner.

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    Dick Mich
    Adairsville GA
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  • 19.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 03-26-2021 13:04
    It's very difficult to get a nitrogen generator of adequate size and purity to replace CO2 for tank purging.  As Jamie Jurado points out, the biggest impurity in generated N2 is typically O2.  I'm guessing Mike Wayne's compressor(s) and generator must be massive relative to a brewery of comparable size.

    Regardless of the preexisting atmosphere in the tank headspace, any gas admitted will freely mix even if admitted very gently per Dalton's Law.

    A relevant read, for fun:
    G. Badino – The legend of carbon dioxide heaviness. Journal of Cave and Karst Studies, v. 71, no. 1, p. 100–107 cave-71-01-100.pdf (caves.org)

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    Jeff Muston
    Plant Utilities Supervisor
    Sierra Nevada Brewing Co
    Mills River, NC
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  • 20.  RE: Nitrogen Generator ROI

    Posted 03-26-2021 21:52
    Carbon dioxide is 57% more dense than nitrogen. 1 cubic meter (10 hL) of nitrogen at 20 C and 1 atm weighs 1.16 kg. The same volume of CO2 weighs 1.83 kg. If you admit the purge gas at the bottom of the tank and let the air out at the top, CO2 will purge the tank more effectively than nitrogen. Maybe not a lot more effectively depending on the geometry of the situation and any temperature gradients. The cited article seems to be about the possibility of already mixed gas separating under the influence of gravity. That will not happen.

    Roger Barth, Ph.D.
    Professor of Chemistry
    West Chester University
    West Chester PA 19383
    610-436-3210
    rbarth@wcupa.edu
    Author of
    The Chemistry of Beer: The Science in the Suds.  ISBN 978-1-118-67497-0.
    Mastering Brewing Science: Quality and Production. ISBN 978-1-119-45605-6